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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#241

Post by miguel-muniz »

YmiYugy wrote: post #88

What does it mean though for a GUI to be keyboard-driven? The obvious way is that every action simply gets a shortcut assigned. My counter would be that that is not really keyboard-driven, but merely keyboard-compatible.There is the issue of discoverability. The best practice right now seems to display the shortcuts of buttons in tooltips, menu items, or when pressing a different shortcut. I’d content that buttons ar…

Yes, there should be a difference between keyboard accessible and driven.

Screen readers allow users to use their keyboards and other assistive devices to navigate websites and apps by tabbing through elements with extra controls and shortcuts to skip to regions, interact with elements and such.

To that degree I agree that all GUIs should be keyboard accessible.

This is obviously not what the original author had in mind, if he had to tab through every item in a web app he would probably get frustrated rather quickly. What he is imagining is like TUIs where all the interactions are through keyboard shortcuts and macros. These are not popular with the majority of users of modern day software, especially if the software is something that is used infrequently. I think we take for granted how component we, people who create software, are.

What has become more popular are interfaces that expose extra controls with a single key press, where the user can type to get the result they want. So instead of memorizing the keyboard shortcuts to dozens of actions, you can press something like Crl+K or / to summon a palette where you can search for the action.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#242

Post by a-dub »

last time i built a crud app (oh maybe about 24 years ago) i made it a point to do this. i remember watching the payroll people fly through their terminal mode vax vms applications with such speed and dexterity that it would make any unix admin well versed in the art of the command line blush and it made me think "oh yeah, all these 90s point and click guis got it all wrong. if people are required to make heavy use of a system at work, they would prefer a learning curve followed by speed, comfort and dexterity over an easier learning curve that trades dexterity for discoverability."

it was a webapp framework, but... all browsing/listing screens included row ids and a focused text box- so that typing the row id and enter would select. all action buttons had an underline to signify which ctrl-shift hotkey triggered them. all edit screens defaulted focus to the first editable textbox and at no time was the mouse actually necessary. finally, load times were optimized to target 75ms.

amusingly, the user feedback was "the keyboard control is pretty good but can you please make it faster."

what i thought was chrome ended up being critical to the users not being miserable.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#243

Post by toast0 »

Telaneo wrote: post #232
mixmastamyk wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't easy to find! https://www.augenbit.de/wiki/images/5/57/Arbeitsplatz.png

Fair. I just remember them being inconsistent between the English and localised versions of Windows, and given I used both, that turned into a nothing-feature. Another comment mentioned you could edit the underlines in Office 2003, but I never knew that back in the day (or until today for that matter...).

It's pretty hard for the shortcuts to be consistent and localized. Especially if you also use different keyboard layouts when you're using different languages...

Even for keys that aren't mnemonic, do you want undo to be ctrl + z or ctrl + the key closest to left shift?

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#244

Post by Sarkie »

nottorp wrote: post #214
theeyescanner wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a while since I've done actual development, but determining tabindex ordering was a very big deal in the early 2000s when clerks/admins were moving from legacy systems to the web. They did most of their jobs with a keyboard, and if you set up tabindexing so that they can use a keyboard for 90% of their job then they would fly through tasks. If you didn't then you'd have some very angry clients at the end of…

I worked on an accounting application once. We had the proper tab order written down on paper docs and checked/updated it regularly. We would have been murdered by at least the point of sale people otherwise :)

I worked in hotel industry, same deal.

Power users would complain within hours

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#245

Post by robomartin »

rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

> Democracy is about access

No, not really. I know what you are trying to say, and I fully agree. We need to stop using "democracy" or "democratizing".

Democracy, in it's purest form, is about mob rule --majority rule, if you want to say it in a softer/kinder way. "Democratizing" means giving a mob control of the thing, it does not mean making it accessible to all at all.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#246

Post by marshray »

failbuffer wrote: post #239
pathartl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that you bring macOS, because for _decades_ I've struggled with navigating it without a keyboard. Windows components however, especially old ones, are incredibly accessible

My theory is that Mac was born with a mouse while Windows (and Windows apps) originally had to function on machines that might not have one. Thus, keyboard navigablity was prioritized, and that design sensibility stuck around longer.

I think it probably has more to do with Mac's lack of adoption by the US Government and large corporations.

Microsoft took accessibility of Windows and apps as a basic requirement. The fact that Windows is the daily driver desktop for the staff of the regulatory agencies that would bring complaints would not have gone unnoticed.

But really, why wouldn't you? You almost get it for free if you use the standard widgets, and smooth keyboard navigation is far faster for experienced users than having to repeatedly move one's hand between keyboard and mouse.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#247

Post by Telaneo »

toast0 wrote: post #243
Telaneo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. I just remember them being inconsistent between the English and localised versions of Windows, and given I used both, that turned into a nothing-feature. Another comment mentioned you could edit the underlines in Office 2003, but I never knew that back in the day (or until today for that matter...).

It's pretty hard for the shortcuts to be consistent and localized. Especially if you also use different keyboard layouts when you're using different languages... Even for keys that aren't mnemonic, do you want undo to be ctrl + z or ctrl + the key closest to left shift?

> It's pretty hard for the shortcuts to be consistent and localized. Especially if you also use different keyboard layouts when you're using different languages...

Hence my original comment. I haven't had a problem with different keyboard layouts, since most of the keys that change are on the outer edge, nowhere near where the most common shortcuts are located (then again, I rarely type using QWERTZ).

> Even for keys that aren't mnemonic, do you want undo to be ctrl + z or ctrl + the key closest to left shift?

CTRL+Z, since that's what it's been since time immemorial, even on ISO keyboards. Consistency is king.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#248

Post by marshray »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #173
preg_match wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where this falls apart is commercial software. The issue is we use off-the-shelf frameworks and tools for commercial software. And then we don't train developers on how to write high-volume software. Commercial software is THE power user use case. Your users will be using your software 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for years. And still, the software is obtuse point-and-click garbage. Meanwhile commercial software fro…

I think you vaaastly overestimate how excel is used by most users if anything, excel exceeds in being MOUSE-driven - it's intuitive in what you press and what you drag and that's kinda my problem with the TFA - author is not representative of typical user. Mouse interaction is the king

"Most users" are not who choose business software.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#249

Post by PunchyHamster »

gramie wrote: post #177
rootedbox wrote: post #152

I work on ADA a lot for my company. Please put on some headphones, turn on the voice assistant of your OS, put on some blinders, and run your app or website… no mouse, just keyboard. 1. Democracy is about access; make sure everyone has access to your software. 2. The keyboard allows folks with disabilities and power users to fly through your website/app… that being said… the second a tab is off, the person with a dis…

I had to keep accessibility in mind a lot in my previous job (web development for a university). The thing that I consistently found was that, the more accessible a website was, the better the experience for everyone , not just people with disabilities.

that's generally the case with many accessibility features, not just for websites
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