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GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

ckardaris.com

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Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#41

Post by sejje »

colesantiago wrote: post #24

I'm glad the fad of TUIs are dying, I don't get the hype of them. We just need better, efficient and faster GUIs to put these TUIs to an end. Take a look at gpgui and glaze leading on this. There should be no reason to use TUIs anymore. It is time to move on from using this arcane technology from the 60s-70s. https://gpui.rs/ https://glaze.app/

> gpui.rs

I clicked. Never trust a gui library without screenshots.

I'll never quit building TUIs, though. I'm building more TUIs now than ever, with AI assistance making it easy.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#43

Post by cosmic_cheese »

cyberax wrote: post #34
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a system macOS definitely has some holes in keyboard navigation, as well as a couple corners which are KB-navigable but the way to focus them is not immediately obvious. On the app level, keyboard navigability depends on the developer. If they take the time to dot their I's and cross their T's it's between decent and great, but if they don't care it'll be bad.

"Some holes"? That's an understatement. There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard. And there are no keyboard accelerators _AT_ _ALL_. Windows will underline the shortcut characters when you hold "alt".

> There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard.

That used to be the case but has changed. Since at least macOS 15 the context menu key on typical keyboards is recognized and functions, and on other keyboards it can be opened with Ctrl+Return.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#44

Post by sejje »

Arainach wrote: post #8
sublinear wrote: post #2

TUIs are an abomination and most GUIs should just be web. CLIs should be preferred when available. Learning them pays you back when it's time to write a script or pipe massive amounts of data.

> most GUIs should just be web. Hard disagree. Most web interfaces are worse than most native UIs. Inconsistent rendering, keyboard shortcuts and navigation between apps, slow response times, and more. There's a reason everyone who knows what Electron is bashes every "native" app built with Electron.

yeah--the reason is the bloat and overhead electron brings.

nobody cares about the web layer

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#45

Post by BeetleB »

sublinear wrote: post #2

TUIs are an abomination and most GUIs should just be web. CLIs should be preferred when available. Learning them pays you back when it's time to write a script or pipe massive amounts of data.

> and most GUIs should just be web.

Yikes, no! One of the reasons old timers like me say that using a computer has sucked a lot in the last ~20 years is the use of a browser as an interface to everything.

If you want to make an app that needs a browser to use, then please drastically improve the browser's interface. I mean, this is a no brainer. TUIs are way more superior to doing things via Safari/Firefox/Chrome.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#46

Post by mglvsky »

colesantiago wrote: post #24

I'm glad the fad of TUIs are dying, I don't get the hype of them. We just need better, efficient and faster GUIs to put these TUIs to an end. Take a look at gpgui and glaze leading on this. There should be no reason to use TUIs anymore. It is time to move on from using this arcane technology from the 60s-70s. https://gpui.rs/ https://glaze.app/

> We just need better, efficient and faster GUIs to put these TUIs to an end.

I think, firstly, we need less meaningless red-tape shenanigans from MS/Apple to publish GUI apps

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#47

Post by ckardaris »

danielvaughn wrote: post #16

I've been on this kick for a long time. A few years ago I was exploring a UI design tool that was entirely keyboard-driven, using pneumonic keychords inspired by Vim: https://github.com/danielvaughn/stride My experience is that while it's awesome to have really deep keyboard-driven experience, it can't _only_ be that. You need some graphical controls to help guide users.

Ideally you should have both. Every action should be doable by mouse only and by keyboard only. That way you can cater to all kinds of users.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#48

Post by halfcat »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #21

Agreed, but what "prevents" it is that making a good keyboard-driven UI takes a lot of taste, extra effort to build it, and it must be revisited any time the UI changes. It's duplicated work. Ideally all GUIs/TUIs are usable with keyboard and mouse independently. A good example of this is when you have a fancy keyboard-driven workflow yet you can't even do the most trivial task without placing two hands on your keybo…

> extra effort to build it

Also extra effort to use it. This is why we have the “how do I exit vim?” meme.

A good user interface needs escape hatches so users can keep their head above water while they learn to swim.

Most of what people want when they say keyboard-driven is closer to a cockpit (requires expert knowledge) than a general purpose UI.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#49

Post by ckardaris »

yangshi07 wrote: post #42

But it is really hard to remember the shortcuts

You don't really need to remember everything though. Mouse navigation does not need to go away. The keyboard shortcuts should be available if you opt to use them, after which point you will be able to memorize them in short time.

The intuitive part of my argument also falls under this. By following known conventions as close as possible, we can eliminate the need to remember the most common actions.

Additionally, it is important to present your shortcuts in a shortcut window/dialog in a logical way for when the user needs to remember something.

In any case, an excesive number of keyboard shortcuts can have a negative effect on usability, so this is also important to keep in mind.

Re: GUIs should be fully keyboard-driven

#50

Post by jvreeland »

I hate nothing more than when a random mistype on a website or app causing shit i don’t understand to happen without reasonable ways to undo it or discover it. I don’t really care if the app can be controlled with a keyboard i want the ui to be discverable and usefull.
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