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EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

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Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#101

Post by convolvatron »

andsoitis wrote: post #36
convolvatron wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its very much using the letter to violate the spirit - since the pollution is emitted regardless of whether the plant is grid-connected. these datacenter plants don't run as clean or as efficient as proper power plants, but the primary acid rain contributor is no2. how much are we really talking about?

> its very much using the letter That’s how law works.

apparently you're very excited about this partisan victory. at some point we do need to actually think about how to effectively manage the country. there should be a back and forth about the appropriate degree of environmental regulation since it is a tradeoff between economic constraint and qualify of life.

I grew up in the 70s, and my father was a Nixon supporting environmental engineer. At the time the amount of nitrogen and sulfur being emitted into the air in the northeast was turning surface water into acid. a ph of 6 was getting quite common, 4 wasn't unusual, and if you were in a bad spot it was approaching 1. Not only would that water not support life, or be unsafe to drink, but it was actually unsafe to touch.

So if we were reasonable people we would look at the economic activity and the upside of burning these gasses, and add up the numbers and based on past experience make a very reasonable estimate of the impact, and make a decision.

but we fired all those people, and we're very much not interested in having this discussion. I fail to see how that's a win for anyone except the polluter.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#102

Post by jaapz »

bob1029 wrote: post #96
pyrophane wrote: post #37

> Clean Air Act (CAA) Acid Rain Program (ARP) does not apply to power generation facilities that are not connected to a public electricity grid, commonly referred to as “islanded” power generation facilities. This of course makes no sense whatever, as whether or not a power generator is connected to the grid has nothing to do with its environmental impact.

Most generators not connected to the grid are for emergency backup purposes. Granted, this carve out is now clearly being abused, but the original intent is quite rational. If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore.

If that is the original intent, why did that not get added into the law? Explicitly specififying that the exception only applies to emergency backup situations would have solved this, right?

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#103

Post by epistasis »

two_handfuls wrote: post #4

Surely this is going to cement the reputation of datacenters as a blight.

The bipartisan opinion shift towards absolute hate for data centers was extremely fast.

Just adding more fuel to one of the brightest fires out there in politics right now. Expect it to continue and grow as people feel even less heard, and any negative media towards data centers gets lots of clicks.

The AI companies and Trump seem to be doing everything they can to encourage this.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#104

Post by andsoitis »

techpression wrote: post #48
pyrophane wrote: post #37

> Clean Air Act (CAA) Acid Rain Program (ARP) does not apply to power generation facilities that are not connected to a public electricity grid, commonly referred to as “islanded” power generation facilities. This of course makes no sense whatever, as whether or not a power generator is connected to the grid has nothing to do with its environmental impact.

Pretty insane, expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon, why bother with generators or the pesky local grid.

> expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon

Why do you think that’s likely?

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#105

Post by Muromec »

consensus1 wrote: post #95
sensanaty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally is just a cartoon villain plan. The AI companies look at something called the "Acid Rain Program" and think to themselves "Fuck that, what's a bit of acid rain going to do?". I truly cannot comprehend the mindset here as hard as I try

The AI companies look at something called the "endless government bureaucracy" and they think to themselves "fuck that, I'm not waiting 10 years for all that bullshit, I'll just use the loophole." I truly cannot comprehend any other reaction because I would rather have my fingernails ripped out than deal with years of government bureaucracy.

I would rather take /them/ going through fingernail ripping government bureaucracy for 10 years over /me/ having acid raid, but hey, I'm just a egoistical and don't see the Big Picture or something.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#106

Post by lvspiff »

Avicebron wrote: post #79
sensanaty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally is just a cartoon villain plan. The AI companies look at something called the "Acid Rain Program" and think to themselves "Fuck that, what's a bit of acid rain going to do?". I truly cannot comprehend the mindset here as hard as I try

I think you nailed the mindset with the "cartoon villain".

Less Snydley Whiplash and more the pig guy from captain planet though

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#107

Post by jaapz »

adamgordonbell wrote: post #76
techpression wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty insane, expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon, why bother with generators or the pesky local grid.

Somebody mentioned that a solar panel field to power a data center requires a lot of impact assessment paper work and approvals. Whereas natural gas generators do not. Hence the runs on gas turbines, while solar panels are plentiful. ( Although I'd guess the consistency of power is a bigger issue. ) Running existing coal is now supposedly more expensive then putting in new wind or solar ... all else being equal.

That might be a reason, but probably more relevant is the fact that when you want solar to provide all power for a data center, you need a lot of buffering capacity (batteries). And then you also need a back up for when the sun doesn't shine... Which is probably a gas generator.

Easier to just install a gas generator then

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#108

Post by Muromec »

jaapz wrote: post #102
bob1029 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most generators not connected to the grid are for emergency backup purposes. Granted, this carve out is now clearly being abused, but the original intent is quite rational. If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore.

If that is the original intent, why did that not get added into the law? Explicitly specififying that the exception only applies to emergency backup situations would have solved this, right?

Clearly codifying intent in a string of bytes is hard, especially if an alternative makes a nice sound folding into a pocket.

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#109

Post by Schlagbohrer »

lvspiff wrote: post #106
Avicebron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you nailed the mindset with the "cartoon villain".

Less Snydley Whiplash and more the pig guy from captain planet though

Both of whom could happily sit together on a corporate board. It's just capitalism!

Re: EPA says power for data centers can sidestep pollution laws

#110

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

sensanaty wrote: post #75
pyrophane wrote: post #37

> Clean Air Act (CAA) Acid Rain Program (ARP) does not apply to power generation facilities that are not connected to a public electricity grid, commonly referred to as “islanded” power generation facilities. This of course makes no sense whatever, as whether or not a power generator is connected to the grid has nothing to do with its environmental impact.

It literally is just a cartoon villain plan. The AI companies look at something called the "Acid Rain Program" and think to themselves "Fuck that, what's a bit of acid rain going to do?". I truly cannot comprehend the mindset here as hard as I try

"Cartoon villainy" is the best possible way to describe this administration. I'm more than willing to accept lots of policy differences, but so many decisions just seem tailor made to fuck over 95%+ of the public. Like how could any sane person defend this?

It remains to be seen if the administration doesn't successfully steal future elections, but the vitriol against data centers is a rare thing that has huge bipartisan support. Texas of all places largely has a competitive governor's race because Republicans have stated they're willing to vote for the Democratic candidate because she has supported a moratorium on data centers while Abbott supports them.

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