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Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

newscientist.com

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Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#91

Though this article concentrates on the SSRIs, other meds like the SNRIs can have a similar or even worse withdrawal effect. We didn't call it "Side Effexor" for nothing. People legitimately need these drugs, including in the short term. The problem for acute stressors once they resolve is how to get them back off.

For something prescribed to get someone through a temporary crisis, "how and when do we get you back off this safely?" should probably be discussed at the beginning, not years later when the patient decides to stop.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#92

Though this article concentrates on the SSRIs, other meds like the SNRIs can have a similar or even worse withdrawal effect. We didn't call it "Side Effexor" for nothing. People legitimately need these drugs, including in the short term. The problem for acute stressors once they resolve is how to get them back off.

> Though this article concentrates on the SSRIs, other meds like the SNRIs can have a similar or even worse withdrawal effect. And don't even get me started on tricyclics or MAOIs... no, seriously, don't get me started on them! The current generation of first-line antidepressants (SSRIs/SNRIs) might as well be free compared to the old school crazy pills.

It's probably less "modern antidepressants are uniquely bad" and more "we got much better at starting people on safer drugs than we did at figuring out how to stop them"

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#94
post #7

To provide one additional anecdote: I came off escitalopram with no taper after taking it for about five years (10mg). I got brain zaps for a while, got very irritated at times, but largely was fine after a few weeks. Not downplaying the withdrawal effects for some people, but they’re not as catastrophic as this article suggests for many (perhaps most). And overall I’m very glad I took it! It got me through a rough p…

Is it possible for phobias to be treated with antidepressants or other medications? I need to look into this

Exposure seems to be the best way out.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#95
Only slightly related, but can anyone ELI5 why Bupropion XL is not the universal first line treatment for depression and is hardly used at all in Europe?

It has fewer side effects vs. SSRIs, can be safely used as a long term medication (which many people do with SSRIs even though it can have negative effects), and doesn't have the same horrible withdrawal symptoms (although you still need to taper).

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#96
Well this would be an improvement over my former NHS GP practice deciding the best way for me to come off antidepressants was immediately stopping them without renewing the prescription or even discussing it with me! I think they just forgot to renew the prescription.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so we set aside NNT, even though their NNH is also quite low, and that's highly relevant, what about effect size and remission rate? This feels a bit like cherrypicking. And you'll note I said "augmented", as well, if somebody is going through the treatment algorithm with SSRIs, by all means, that's the bridge to stability for somebody on a longer term course. But many people don't need anything more than acute…

> what about effect size and remission rate? This feels a bit like cherrypicking Trying to pull out NNT feels like cherry picking because it sounds really bad to people who don’t know how other drugs look on this measure. If your point is that it would be better if we had better drugs then I agree. I think trying to imply that SSRIs are barely a step above useless is not helpful, though. Statistics like NNT and remis…

> If your point is that it would be better if we had better drugs then I agree.

My point is that there are other interventions which do have an effect size over the perceptual threshold. Exercise is a big one, but there are lots - sleep deprivation, intensive therapy, the esketamine class, TMS, ECT in extremis, (nature exposure and other seeming woo like that need study but are promising) are all significantly better than handing someone an SSRI. And many of those don't have the withdrawal symptom and side effects under treatment that SSRIs do. People are, in aggregate, being harmed by SSRIs displacing things that work right now, and also displacing the urgency of new drug development in the space.

The gap is that, in an acute treatment setting, people are being handed a drug that cannot be effective for at least a week or two, up to 6-8 weeks, instead of drugs that work in hours or days.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#98
post #11

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

> Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. No, that will just hurt more people up front for longer. The truth is antidepressants have a larger effect on mental health than actually gets reported because of how improvements are measured. If you look at a patient who doesn't get out of bed, is in trouble at work/school for performance, doesn't spend soc…

> You look at a patient who doesn't get out of bed, is in trouble at work/school for performance, doesn't spend social time with friends, etc, and 6 months after starting an SSRI they're indistinguishable from other people but still have other issues, we call that a "mild impact" because they self-report other problems.

This really lines up with what I've seen anecdotally. My partner literally doesn't remember how bad things were before he took antidepressants because depression impacted his ability to form memories. He self reports that antidepressants had a mild impact, but from an outside perspective nearly everything about his life changed.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#99
My parents tried seeking out help for me when I was about 10 years old, but they got cold feet, and I believe that they were unwilling to accept any responsibility or blame for what was going on at home. So when I reached the age of majority, they fully funded therapist and psychiatrist sessions for me, and they foisted Prozac upon me, starting around 1991.

I began taking Prozac and suddenly exhibited a remarkable improvement in my mood and affect. These improvements were largely because I was getting attention, I was getting "weekly pep talks" from a professional, and at long last, there were names I could affix to those extremely troublesome spirits that tormented me night and day.

But the doctors, having a practice in the Children's Hospital, didn't see fit to warn me not to drink alcohol, especially not to excess, and I was simply reaching that age where this was happening frequently. So, the mixture of SSRI plus ethanol was really disastrous for me and my loved ones.

I cycled through all kinds of meds, and clinicians tried finding some other stuff to medicate, like maybe hypothyroidism, and I really hated the medication, and I got hospitalized and discharged with a cocktail of at least 5 prescriptions all at once. I suffered really awful adverse side effects. But it wasn't realistic to stop. I kept cycling through new and different drugs. Every time it was new and different, and I had more complaints, and I stopped again and again. I had all the "brain zaps" especially Zappy Zoloft, and more hospitals and more upheavals in life.

I've finally reached a point where I can steadfastly refuse any medication, up to the point where inpatient treatment is done. I am 100% off drugs, and I feel great about that. I tend to inform my providers that I have "a Lithium deficiency" because bipolar isn't real: it's merely a cluster of highly-subjective "symptoms" and behaviors, under an ever-widening umbrella, and the bottom line is that they just want to put Lithium Carbonate on the checklist of "subject is treating this thing" and then once I'm taking enough of it, they can heap on more and more drugs on top. And Lithium is one of those where they grab you for a monthly blood test, to "trust, but verify" as the Soviets would say.

So I am pleased that SSRIs and their ilk are far, far behind me. I inwardly chuckle or sigh wistfully when I hear another patient extolling the virtues of ECT or Ketamine or something. How wonderful for you to be dependent on quacks and pseudoscience. Read any Wikipedia page for these drugs.

They are fairy tales.

I am a practicing Roman Catholic: I don't need to believe in fairy tales from foreigners and infidels who distribute condoms and wear white coats.

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#100
post #95

Only slightly related, but can anyone ELI5 why Bupropion XL is not the universal first line treatment for depression and is hardly used at all in Europe? It has fewer side effects vs. SSRIs, can be safely used as a long term medication (which many people do with SSRIs even though it can have negative effects), and doesn't have the same horrible withdrawal symptoms (although you still need to taper).

My doctor tried me on Bupropion for ADHD and I think it caused my BorderlinePD to get much worse, so definitely YMMV.
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