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Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

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Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#181

Post by crote »

rangestransform wrote: post #111
MisterTea wrote: post #68

Coming from NYC and being used to swiping once to pay a flat fair, my first Suica lesson was they vary the fair by the distance traveled. This means you have to tap in AND out of buses and subways. It was a bit embarrassing and frustrating when I almost could not board a bus in Sapporo with my friends after they all tapped in and my card was rejected. WTF? Thankfully the bus driver showed me a sign in English telling…

We should have tap in/out in NYC too, it gives another opportunity to catch a fare evader

It also allows for easy in-transit checking: anyone on the "secure" side of the fare gates must be in possession of a card whose last transaction was a tap-in. There's no chance of a cheeky "it wasn't me who jumped the turnstyles - it was my lookalike", and you can have roaming groups of ticket validators who board random carriages and check everyone.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#182

Post by thrdbndndn »

mrbonner wrote: post #135
fizwidget wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Japan last year. iPhone version was super easy and worked flawlessly for me.

Is it the Apple Wallet version or the actual Suica app? I'm wondering about the Apple Wallet one.

Apple Wallet version is enough for 99% case. You do need the suica app for things like purchasing green car ticket etc.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#183

Post by m4rtink »

Tor3 wrote: post #65
pknomad wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only magically fast, but it's super useful. You can use it at vending machines + convenience stores anywhere (unless it's one of those old ones that only take cash/coins and print paper tickets) and at the shops as well. People not in Japan/Singapore/Korea/China should experience what a proper transit card done looks like.

I've used a Suica card for many years now. I agree it's both fast and reliable. One summer I was crisscrossing Tokyo by train over several days, using the Suica card, so I got to see a LOT of commuters. Lots of people were in a hurry and would run through the gates (the default state is open, it closes quickly if your card is out of funds or some other problem). Running through the gates while quickly touching the ca…

It was funny during Expo in Osaka on the massive metro station - you could just zip in with the suica, while the less knowledgeable foreign tourists would form long queues in front of the special gates where they could pay by a payment card, which were glacialy slow in comparison.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#184

Post by crote »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #5
jjice wrote: post #3

Suica was excellent when I had the chance to use it. I used the Apple Pay version and it worked flawlessly. I think I do prefer what I'm seeing more and more in the US with a tap-to-pay so I don't have to learn a new system, but Suica was so universal that I really couldn't complain. Makes sense especially with the larger diversity of digital payment methods and cash prevalence in Japan.

The really nice advantage of Suica is its speed. Yeah credit card tap to pay is alright, but it's relatively slow, taking multiple seconds. Now QR code payment seems to be taking off in Japan, but unfortunately you can't access it as a tourist.

Credit card tap-to-pay doesn't have to be slow. The transaction could be done asynchronously, and some payment schemes even explicitly classify transit transactions as impossible-to-fail and will ignore things like overdraft limits.

Similarly, it could also be implemented via a rolling payment hold loop. Unattended petrol stations do something similar: you first insert the card to authorize a hold (say $200), then fill up the car, then finalize the transaction - at which point your $50 bill is actually deducted and the hold on the remaining $150 is released. Transit could do the same, with only the very first transaction being slow, and each terminal containing a list of pre-authorized cards.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#185

Post by MarkSweep »

juliansimioni wrote: post #117

I am literally on a flight to Japan right now, and one of my main goals is to add a Suica card to my collection of transit cards from around the world (currently 31 cards large). Sadly physical cards may only have a few years left, for the most part using tap-to-ride is superior. So I really have to get out there and grab them while I can.

A noble goal. Last I heard the best bet to gete a physical Suica card is to get the Welcome Suica. It is available at a few airports and a few large train stations:

https://www.jreast.co.jp/en/multi/welcomesuica/welcomesuica....

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#186

Post by m463 »

polishdude20 wrote: post #39
cptcobalt wrote: post #20

If you haven’t experienced suica, it’s like magically fast. Faster than NFC, faster than Apple Pay, faster than tap to pay, faster than Disney magic bands, faster than your work badge. It absolutely floored me every time I used it in Japan and it’s a full payment transaction.

The card might be fast but getting one as a tourist is kind of a hassle

I noticed that. I could have sworn I got one with a credit card, but can't refill it.

Maybe you can refill it with cash? Or did I have to buy it with cash? and when you leave everything expires.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#187

Post by kalleboo »

hnfong wrote: post #88
rwmj wrote: post #21

Wait, the balance is stored on the card? I'm fairly sure the balance is shown in the JR app too, so presumably that cannot be the case. [Update: or maybe not? I opened the app now and it's asking me to enable NFC and hold it up to the card.] Anyway I love my Suica. I got it a good decade or more ago, I have a few thousand yen on there, and it's always ready for me when I go back to Japan. Useful on the Metro, trains…

The card definitely stores the balance. They probably sync the transaction records to their servers, but during the transaction the value on the card is presumed to be the truth AFAICT. Remember when the system was designed in the early 2000s the Internet was much less available and reliable, and when so many transactions happen every day, you don't want to get thousands of passengers stuck inside a metro station onl…

Credit card payments have an "offline" mode for the same reason - before ubiquitous broadband, a shop may have to dial-up to the bank to verify a card, which is slow. Debit cards that run on the credit networks can have that enabled or disabled depending on trust.

Remember originally credit card payments worked by putting the card under a slip of carbon-copy paper and rubbing off the raised digits. All the digital stuff ontop of that was just for efficiency.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#188

Post by kalleboo »

spicyjpeg wrote: post #50

The FeliCa NFC standard made its way into more than just transit cards in Japan. One notable user is the Amusement IC network, which lets you quickly log into arcade games across multiple manufacturers using a single card. Some implementations (Konami's e-amusement most notably) even go as far as to allow any FeliCa-compatible card or device to be linked to a profile, including transit cards, phones (with no app requ…

> Some implementations even go as far as to allow any FeliCa-compatible card or device to be linked to a profile

This is also put in use in many karaoke joints to save a list of your favorite songs/song history.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#189

Post by kalleboo »

jacobgkau wrote: post #115
numpad0 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's largely the same as credit cards - the card have multiple data partitions and secure read/write are encrypted. Balances are logged on both the card and the station-level servers and correctable errors and/or mid-ride updates, if any, are propagated while the user is in motion, so that they can be written upon exit. ^ that was the official explanation for a long time, but they've reportedly transitioned to more c…

> Plus, the prepaid limit of 20k yen(local equivalent of $200) limits abuse potential of the system; it's not worth trying to commit blatant frauds on the train-and-sandwiches card. I don't think a limit on the value stored on the card limits the potential of fraud. I'm not imagining someone would load tens of thousands of yen onto their card. I'm more imagining someone setting the card to have enough money to get th…

I remember the stored-value transit cards in Sweden in the 90's/00's. They were just magstripe cards with the value on it and a basic checksum value. It was not hard to figure out how to rewrite the card with a higher value, or just clone it, value and all, onto a separate card. No online component, as mobile networks weren't great when the system was designed.

They'd download their transaction logs out of the buses every night and do a reconciliation. If they found a card where the value went up or had impossible travel times, they'd look at the travel routes/dates and wait around on the "hackers" commute route with a police officer until they showed up. Very manual.

Re: Suica, Japan's First IC Transit Card

#190

Post by dyllon »

hbarka wrote: post #144
pknomad wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only magically fast, but it's super useful. You can use it at vending machines + convenience stores anywhere (unless it's one of those old ones that only take cash/coins and print paper tickets) and at the shops as well. People not in Japan/Singapore/Korea/China should experience what a proper transit card done looks like.

Alipay in China for transit and pay is also easy. No card, just a QR on your phone. It can even be a screenshot of the QR code.

QRs will always be so much more cumbersome than blindly tapping a card or your phone.
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