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Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

newscientist.com

11–20 of 382 posts

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#11

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

> Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place.

No, that will just hurt more people up front for longer. The truth is antidepressants have a larger effect on mental health than actually gets reported because of how improvements are measured. If you look at a patient who doesn't get out of bed, is in trouble at work/school for performance, doesn't spend social time with friends, etc, and 6 months after starting an SSRI they're indistinguishable from other people but still have other issues, we call that a "mild impact" because they self-report other problems.

The truth is we took someone from being passively suicidal to functioning normally, and we fail to look at the self-reported problems, we just report them. The self reported problems tend to change from "I don't care about anything" to "I'm unhappy at my job" or "I'm stressed at how much I have to do with work and my kids and home." These are actually major improvements, the patient has gone from being actually clinically depressed to significant improvement but continued unhappiness with life circumstances as opposed to unhappiness with life in general.

Antidepressants are amazing, we need to improve therapists and how they deal with medicated patients. Too many therapists dismiss meds and too many psychiatrists dismiss therapy. I've been in this space for a long time now, healthcare IT in the mental/behavioral health space. We're engaged in a long erm research study to help demonstrate the value of a tightly integrated therapy/psych team and more advanced treatments and when you get everyone in the room pulling in the same direction patient outcomes are amazing.

One actual issue that antidepressants face is that they're not the only treatment, but many doctors are reluctant to move to TMS or esketamine, despite the amaing success rates they have with patients who have not had success with two or more drugs. If two drugs failed you, the third has a 14% chance of helping. The 4th is single digits. But you pivot to TMS and you see 60-80 percent improvement rates. Esketamine is close too.

ADs aren't the problem, it's that we don't take mental health as serious as we take physical health.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#12

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

So did you take them and have a bad time? Because they definitely work for me and I doubt a placebo could have such a large effect on the 48 hour stomach pains I used to get alongside my frequent panic attacks. I find it funny that people complain about emotional blunting when that is the entire purpose of the drug. I would prefer not to live on the razors edge ever again. I’ve had chronic anxiety and depression ever…

For some people the emotional blunting is desirable, especially as you said, if the problem is chronic anxiety. But for many other people, their depression is defined by a lack of positive affect and anhedonia, meaning that emotional blunting is literally making things worse.

Depression is highly heterogenous, and I am glad the medication helped you.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#13
post #7

To provide one additional anecdote: I came off escitalopram with no taper after taking it for about five years (10mg). I got brain zaps for a while, got very irritated at times, but largely was fine after a few weeks. Not downplaying the withdrawal effects for some people, but they’re not as catastrophic as this article suggests for many (perhaps most). And overall I’m very glad I took it! It got me through a rough p…

Good news, exposure therapy is quite effective for arachnophobia and is the first-line treatment. SSRIs do not have the same level of supporting evidence, and the effects are not as durable.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On an academic level, we have reined in much of the excess enthusiasm in antidepressants that was courtesy of 90s-era pharmaceutical reps and ad men, but I don't think this revision ever occurred in the cultural consciousness at large.

Have we reigned in the number of perscriptions? Because the 1 in 10 stat I find seems a bit low, at least in my circle, and those are the ones who are open about it. And the people I know have been on them approximately a decade. What baffles me is that a fair number of them triggered their own depressive episodes, and likely did need therapy and something at the time - but have all long since move past those "moment…

I am not sure, but recommendations to prescribe in mild cases have quietly been reigned in a bit by e.g. NICE https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222/chapter/Recommendatio....

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#15

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

On an academic level, we have reined in much of the excess enthusiasm in antidepressants that was courtesy of 90s-era pharmaceutical reps and ad men, but I don't think this revision ever occurred in the cultural consciousness at large.

See also: The Serotonin Theory of Depression: a Systematic Umbrella Review of the Evidence (2022). It's worth reading the introduction and results in full, but here are two important quotes (footnote markers removed):

> Our comprehensive review of the major strands of research on serotonin shows there is no convincing evidence that depression is associated with, or caused by, lower serotonin concentrations or activity. Most studies found no evidence of reduced serotonin activity in people with depression compared to people without, and methods to reduce serotonin availability using tryptophan depletion do not consistently lower mood in volunteers. High quality, well-powered genetic studies effectively exclude an association between genotypes related to the serotonin system and depression, including a proposed interaction with stress.

> The chemical imbalance theory of depression is still put forward by professionals, and the serotonin theory, in particular, has formed the basis of a considerable research effort over the last few decades. The general public widely believes that depression has been convincingly demonstrated to be the result of serotonin or other chemical abnormalities, and this belief shapes how people understand their moods, leading to a pessimistic outlook on the outcome of depression and negative expectancies about the possibility of self-regulation of mood. The idea that depression is the result of a chemical imbalance also influences decisions about whether to take or continue anti-depressant medication and may discourage people from dis-continuing treatment, potentially leading to lifelong dependence on these drugs.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#16
post #7

To provide one additional anecdote: I came off escitalopram with no taper after taking it for about five years (10mg). I got brain zaps for a while, got very irritated at times, but largely was fine after a few weeks. Not downplaying the withdrawal effects for some people, but they’re not as catastrophic as this article suggests for many (perhaps most). And overall I’m very glad I took it! It got me through a rough p…

It's been years since, but I too had brain zaps coming off of it. It took a few months for those to go away.

I tried to describe it to my doctor and he seemed like he never heard of it before and sort of look at me like I was crazy, or at least that is what I sensed. But I ended up researching online and found it was a thing that happens.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#17
post #11

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

> Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. No, that will just hurt more people up front for longer. The truth is antidepressants have a larger effect on mental health than actually gets reported because of how improvements are measured. If you look at a patient who doesn't get out of bed, is in trouble at work/school for performance, doesn't spend soc…

> The truth is antidepressants have a larger effect on mental health than actually gets reported because of how improvements are measured.

The truth is actually exactly the opposite, and I provided very high-quality evidence demonstrating this to be the case. You have nothing but bald assertions.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#18

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

So did you take them and have a bad time? Because they definitely work for me and I doubt a placebo could have such a large effect on the 48 hour stomach pains I used to get alongside my frequent panic attacks. I find it funny that people complain about emotional blunting when that is the entire purpose of the drug. I would prefer not to live on the razors edge ever again. I’ve had chronic anxiety and depression ever…

> I find it funny that people complain about emotional blunting when that is the entire purpose of the drug.

The ideal would be to blunt the negatives but not the positives. The effect of some of the older antidepressants can be to blunt both, across the board.

Some of the newer atypical antidepressants can address depression without making everything flat.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#19
post #7

To provide one additional anecdote: I came off escitalopram with no taper after taking it for about five years (10mg). I got brain zaps for a while, got very irritated at times, but largely was fine after a few weeks. Not downplaying the withdrawal effects for some people, but they’re not as catastrophic as this article suggests for many (perhaps most). And overall I’m very glad I took it! It got me through a rough p…

Good news, exposure therapy is quite effective for arachnophobia and is the first-line treatment. SSRIs do not have the same level of supporting evidence, and the effects are not as durable.

Thanks, yeah, but if I’m honest I don’t really care enough to go through with it. I almost did once, years ago, the London Zoo have a programme.

I mentioned it though as one of the most stark changes I noticed after getting on an SSRI was pretty much immediately losing my fear of spiders. It was the first sign I had that showed it was doing something.

I used to literally, on occasion, launch my phone across the room if I was scrolling and came across a spider (sometimes drenching myself with coffee or whatever in the process!) and then one day, shortly after getting on it, I stumbled across some awful tarantula video or something and I just stared at it like “huh, why am I not freaking out”.

Re: Doctors are finally learning to manage antidepressant withdrawal

#20

Best way to manage the withdrawal would be to dramatically reduce them being prescribed in the first place. The linked article says they have "small to moderate effectiveness", but this is being far too generous. The correct way to measure drug effectiveness is if the treatment meets the standard of a minimal important difference. I.e. you measure depression on various rating scales, like the 17-point HAM-D, and rese…

I can’t believe we’ve normalized anti depressants as a society.

I’m about to get downvoted into oblivion for this take though.

I’m not trying to discount mental health, I just think there are better solutions than drugs to fix your state of mind.

Also think that some people are dealt a tougher hand than most, and that for a small subset of humans, anti depressants are the most fitting cure.

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