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Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

nature.com

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Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#111
post #109
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let's do away with the hostility. I don't know what I have done to provoke it but it's certainly not worth discussing anything in this manner. It's important not to engage in willful misunderstanding, or conflate separate points I made into some kind of chimera to distort what I said. > You blame everything on "behavior" then claim to have a food addiction. This is certainly a gross mischaracterization, and I…

I don't recall "doing this before" with you in specific. I recall talking to you. I recall it was amicable, which is part of why I replied at all. But this type thing does happen to me a lot on the internet generally, which is incredibly frustrating for me personally. It also happens a lot on HN specifically: I get dismissed by people who are convinced they know science, thus their vague generalizations and personal…

I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter misunderstandings, that's why I'm so surprised. For what it's worth, I also made it abundantly clear in my posts above where the line between my opinion and scientific fact is - all the more frustrating you chose to attack me as if that line wasn't there. For what it's worth, I do know bioscience, but I also realize that arguments from authority don't mean much, that's why I don't like to preface posts with "I'm a [insert area of expertise here]". I never said anything amounting to "I'm an expert, trust me", instead I believe this is basic stuff that anybody can understand if they make an effort.

Having discussions with smart people who disagree with me is one of the reasons I enjoy HN so much. But it is no fun if key points are misunderstood, ignored, or repeated out of context. So I really wanted to find out why this was happening.

I won't repeat things I said earlier, but as a summary: I really don't think there can be any contention about the growth mechanism of bacteria. As a point of personal opinion, I have voiced doubts about the study and its methodology. I also expressed a personal theory on two major factors that make people fat, one of which I (somewhat regretfully) tied myself to.

> There are a lot of people who are either obese and have tried everything and can't lose weight or are thin and have tried everything and can't gain weight.

Those two are very different. There is absolutely no doubt that obesity comes from excess intake of energy. None. Some diseases cause the body to grow excess tissue or to store water excessively, but that's not obesity. Failing to gain weight, however, can be down to a lot of factors both behavioral and biochemical.

> But your opinion is "some people just eat too much", apparently with no real cause.

I did not say that or anything even resembling that.

> Equally, you are comfortable with "bacteria are everywhere -- if you eat too much you can grow them".

It's a simplified summary, but it's fair.

> In your view, the eating too much has to precede the bacterial overgrowth. Seems awfully convenient.

I don't think that's convenient for anybody. It's just the only way you can multiply microorganisms to any significant numbers.

> But people don't get AIDS or anything else because "well, germs are everywhere".

That one leaves me a little speechless. HIV is a virus, it doesn't have a metabolism of its own. It's a rogue piece of software that hijacks the human runtime, so to speak. That's an exceedingly bad example, but there are bacteria out there that would be much better suited for the point you are trying to make: Take MRSA for example, because it grows and lives off living human tissue. Contrast that to the enterobacteria we were talking about originally, they live off our waste products. So it's clear why, for example, E. cloacae is directly related to the food you eat, but MRSA is not. MRSA attacks the body and provokes an immune response, E.c. does not. That's also the reason why MRSA is something you contract, whereas E.c. is something which in all likelihood you already have. It's worth repeating that enterobacteria actually lend essential assistance to our digestive system.

> My only goal was to kill off the overgrowth of germs which were killing me.

Now I understand so much better where you're coming from. We could have saved a lot of time... Whatever works for you is fine, I didn't want to sabotage that - nor did I have any idea why my dry descriptions provoked such a visceral response, but now I see why.

> I really should know better by now, by my recollection was that you are a very reasonable member of the forum.

Well, I do think this exchange was worth pursuing in retrospect. I do try to be reasonable, though of course I often fail. I'll just have to try harder :)

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. "Gut bacteria are the cause, I can do nothing" "It's genetics" No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe they somehow pull more energy out of food than normal gut flora somehow, in the end it doesn't really m…

No, you are still wrong. I am morbidly obese and struggle with my weight daily. It will kill me in the end but I want to know what you would do when your metabolism is so low that your normal body temperature hangs at around 97.2F and resists being raised even by means of medications and heavy exercise. I'm sorry but when numerous doctors over 20 years all throw their hands up and say they can't help then there is no…

Thank you for sharing this. Hang in there. Don't let the haters get you down.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#113

I can comprehend a good deal of code but this medical jargon is making my head spin. Anyone care to summarize this for us feeble minded laypersons? Because it sounds like they found something in obese people that if eliminated could lead to weight loss. I know there are people that can benefit from that when extreme obesity makes regular, "simple" dieting very challenging and exercise impossible.

tl;dr: fat guy lost a ton of weight by a diet that reduced a specific kind of gut bacteria; this bacteria inserted into mice engineered to be thin caused the mice to gain weight. Ergo, bacteria may be driving obesity.

Not only obesity, but insulin resistance: basically gave the mice the start of "metabolic syndrome", as also observed in obese humans.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#114
post #111
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall "doing this before" with you in specific. I recall talking to you. I recall it was amicable, which is part of why I replied at all. But this type thing does happen to me a lot on the internet generally, which is incredibly frustrating for me personally. It also happens a lot on HN specifically: I get dismissed by people who are convinced they know science, thus their vague generalizations and personal…

I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter…

I think there can be contention about the growth mechanism. Again, my main "proof" is I got better after being sentenced to death. Trying to talk about that gets me dismissed in the ugliest way possible. On HN, I was recently repeatedly accused of being mentally ill and hounded by someone claiming I was being irrational and overly emotional. I remain baffled that no one seemed to recognize his behavior as irrational and overly emotional. My only crime is telling a truth which people find so fantastical that they feel entitled to claim I made it up. I am at wits end as to how to carry on a rational discussion in the face of that. I am trying to figure out what I need to do to present my case more effectively. But I also frequently wish that I could, conveniently, just shut up about it and let other people keep dying, like they seem to prefer. I don't know how to do that. It is an option I often contemplate. But I seem to be equally unable to do that. One of those "sucks to be me" things.

I really don't wish to discuss this further in this thread. Again: Please have a good evening.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if someone is fat. What I care about is the loons saying that it's healthy and fine to be morbidly obese and they use stuff like this to back it up. "Gut bacteria are the cause, I can do nothing" "It's genetics" No, it's calories in vs calories out. Maybe these bacteria make you want to eat more, maybe they somehow pull more energy out of food than normal gut flora somehow, in the end it doesn't really m…

No, you are still wrong. I am morbidly obese and struggle with my weight daily. It will kill me in the end but I want to know what you would do when your metabolism is so low that your normal body temperature hangs at around 97.2F and resists being raised even by means of medications and heavy exercise. I'm sorry but when numerous doctors over 20 years all throw their hands up and say they can't help then there is no…

I lost quite a lot of weight by focusing on killing germs and altering my biochemistry. I would be happy to talk to you about it in hopes it might help you. If you wish to talk, my gmail account starts with talithamichele.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#116
This is potentially huge news. If it can be replicated you can take all the high-fat/low-fat, high-carb/low-carb, paleo whatever diets and chuck them. "we show that one endotoxin-producing bacterium isolated from a morbidly obese human’s gut induced obesity and insulin resistance in germfree mice." "Germ-free mice" are mice raised from before birth with no germs, so the effect of a single infection can be observed without complications. They claim that a single bacterium strain from a human gut, infected into mice, gave them not just obesity but insulin resistance and inflammatory symptoms -- a close analog of the complex we call "metabolic syndrome" in obese people.

If even some cases of metabolic syndrome can be linked to a simple bacterium -- and cured simply by killing that bug -- this will have the economic and medicinal effects of, well, not the eradication of smallpox, but pretty close.

Scientifically it's the equal of marshal and warren finding the bacterial cause of peptic ulcers -- and they got the Nobel for medicine for that.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#117
post #114
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter…

I think there can be contention about the growth mechanism. Again, my main "proof" is I got better after being sentenced to death. Trying to talk about that gets me dismissed in the ugliest way possible. On HN, I was recently repeatedly accused of being mentally ill and hounded by someone claiming I was being irrational and overly emotional. I remain baffled that no one seemed to recognize his behavior as irrational…

Again: none of those things are actually happening in this thread. I'm not disrespecting you, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I also don't think I'm being irrational. I do believe you didn't really read my entire posts though, but that is more a failure on my part than on yours.

Also, it's actually morning here in Europe. In the spirit of a new day: don't ever shut up, but do lighten up.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#118
post #111
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall "doing this before" with you in specific. I recall talking to you. I recall it was amicable, which is part of why I replied at all. But this type thing does happen to me a lot on the internet generally, which is incredibly frustrating for me personally. It also happens a lot on HN specifically: I get dismissed by people who are convinced they know science, thus their vague generalizations and personal…

I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter…

I think one case where someone might object to your comments is the assertion that obesity is strictly a behavioral problem, in the form of overeating. While that may be strictly true by virtue of the conservation of matter and energy, the word "behavioral" can be interpreted as meaning "chosen," as in, "People are obese because they want to be obese." It may be helpful to note that there are many causes for behavior, including conscious effort, habit, addiction, autonomous instinct, reflex, and perhaps even lipopolysaccharide endotoxin.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#119
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter…

I think one case where someone might object to your comments is the assertion that obesity is strictly a behavioral problem, in the form of overeating. While that may be strictly true by virtue of the conservation of matter and energy, the word "behavioral" can be interpreted as meaning "chosen," as in, "People are obese because they want to be obese." It may be helpful to note that there are many causes for behavior…

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply that behavior is the same as choice. It didn't occur to me that could even be an issue. It's a neutral term.

Re: Pathogen from gut of obese human causes obesity in germfree mice

#120
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one case where someone might object to your comments is the assertion that obesity is strictly a behavioral problem, in the form of overeating. While that may be strictly true by virtue of the conservation of matter and energy, the word "behavioral" can be interpreted as meaning "chosen," as in, "People are obese because they want to be obese." It may be helpful to note that there are many causes for behavior…

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply that behavior is the same as choice. It didn't occur to me that could even be an issue. It's a neutral term.

To people fighting a personal fight in the middle of the battlefield, neutral terms can become not so neutral very quickly :-).
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