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11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

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Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. Let that sink in! It is extraordinary to me that they don't get as much clout as they deserve for maintaining human civilization for so long. They literally evolved cryptologically sound techniques for maintaining their history - through fires, floods, calamity and Mother Nature. We can't even keep our stor…

What are some good books or websites where one can read these stories? I am interested in learning more about them.

https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/marlaloo-songline

https://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/aboriginal-religion/

There are plenty of other places to start the journey but those will get you on the path.

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#112
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was mainly mocking the absolutistic comment above, I find it very possible that the aborigines culture remembers very old events and that there can be proof in the conventional sense for it. But it would be indirect proof.

It is direct proof in the geological record, what part of that are you just failing to understand?

Do you have the qualification to evaluate, whether some parts in the soil is a direct proof of some oral telling?

Do you know their language? Can you rule out missunderstanding, misstranslation or plain fraud?

I cannot, so I fail to understand the absolute direct proof here. Do you have a researcher btw. who says there is absolute proof for this?

I doubt it, I rather think their language is along the lines of: "those findings indicate that ..".

"The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years."

And especially for this claim of yours, citing from the one given link:

"Eruption 37,000 years ago may have sparked a legend about four giants"

Notice the "may"?

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#113
post #68
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend everyone watch the documentary First Footprints[0], it is the most wondrous thing I have ever seen. The simple answer is that some storied reference events that happened that long ago.[1] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n6VJ5jq7zY [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-anci...

Thanks. I don't have time to watch the video, but the article still leaves me skeptical. Matching myths to past events seems to me fraught with all the same potential pitfalls as matching them to future events and thence labeling them as prophecies, especially when the event in question is as common as a volcano erupting. But I will admit it's not entirely implausible either.

Here's another example (this from Europe) of a story that probably originates 100,000 years ago: https://www.iflscience.com/an-ancient-human-story-about-the-...

TLDR: the story is about a constellation that is seven sisters, but one is hiding; and that constellation does indeed have seven stars, but one hasn't been visible for 100k years.

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#114
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. I know that this is commonly believed, but how could you possibly know?

I remember they found remnants of a 10k yr old ritual ground that matches the ritual in the oral tradition. Found it https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01912-w

There is also a legend of incestuous royals connected to the Boyne valley tombs in Ireland, written down in the 12th century. DNA examination of a person buried in the tombs found that his parents were indeed very closely related. This suggests almost 5000 years of oral tradition, even surviving a fairly big cultural replacement event.

If that can happen, it's not so surprising a story can last 20-30000 years either - especially not if there's not much else making a similar impression to tell stories about.

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#115
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess Cleopatra feels somewhat 'close' to us due to the surviving literary and archeological artifacts from the Roman empire. Shakespeare wrote a play about her and Elizabeth Taylor played her in a movie. The effect of modern media is 99% of the reason why Cleopatra feels more "contemporary" than, say, Hatshepsut (for whom plenty of artifacts exist) or even Nefertiti.

Cleopatra was a contemporary of Julius Caesar, and played a major role in his biography. (Which is why Plutarch wrote about her, which is why Shakespeare wrote about her, which is why 20th Century Fox made the film about her.) Julius Caesar is... a big name... in the West. Call that "the effect of media" if you like, but it's a thing. Hatshepsut and Nefertiti lived respectively 1400 and 1300 years before Cleopatra, a…

Nefertiti was subject to a "damnatio memorae"-campaign as I recall, along with the rest of her monotheist (Aten-worshipping) family.

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#116
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is direct proof in the geological record, what part of that are you just failing to understand?

Do you have the qualification to evaluate, whether some parts in the soil is a direct proof of some oral telling? Do you know their language? Can you rule out missunderstanding, misstranslation or plain fraud? I cannot, so I fail to understand the absolute direct proof here. Do you have a researcher btw. who says there is absolute proof for this? I doubt it, I rather think their language is along the lines of: "those…

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Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. Let that sink in! It is extraordinary to me that they don't get as much clout as they deserve for maintaining human civilization for so long. They literally evolved cryptologically sound techniques for maintaining their history - through fires, floods, calamity and Mother Nature. We can't even keep our stor…

> The original caretakers of the Australian continent have been telling the same stories orally for 40,000 years. The San have been around for over 100,000 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_peoples

Mungo Lady:

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/mungo-lady

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#118
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the qualification to evaluate, whether some parts in the soil is a direct proof of some oral telling? Do you know their language? Can you rule out missunderstanding, misstranslation or plain fraud? I cannot, so I fail to understand the absolute direct proof here. Do you have a researcher btw. who says there is absolute proof for this? I doubt it, I rather think their language is along the lines of: "those…

[flagged]

I did research and just gave you a quote that says maybe. I have zero reason to assume your position there is definitely proof for the claim 40000 years memory to be correct.

"Do your own research for my claim" doesn't work around here.

Re: 11,000-year-old sculpture of man riding a leopard found in Turkey

#120
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I did research and just gave you a quote that says maybe. I have zero reason to assume your position there is definitely proof for the claim 40000 years memory to be correct. "Do your own research for my claim" doesn't work around here.

If you weren’t so arrogant you could have gone on a journey of your own discovery. That is important on matters of great cultural significance such as this - do your own investigation and gain your own understanding, honestly - don’t just accept what you’ve been conditioned to think about it. The requirement to be honest goes both ways.

Because the original caretakers stories have been so degraded by imperialist idealogues over the centuries, the onus is on us in the modern era, to make the effort of discovery ourselves.

What you must understand, from your perspective as the ‘protector of truth in this community’, is that colonial disruption severely damaged the transmission and integrity of Aboriginal oral traditions, so modern people (scientists, researchers, and society) must actively recover and validate what remains rather than relying solely on what was passed down intact. Your desire to achieve the perception of “scientific rigor” in this discussion is manifesting the very imperialist attitude which degraded these peoples’ wonderful, amazing culture, in the first place.

So, get off your horse and learn some things. Make an effort to educate yourself and don’t just play the imperialist-knows-best card.

This should get you started at least:

Nunn, P.D. & Reid, N.J. (2016). “Aboriginal Memories of Inundation of the Australian Coast Dating from More than 7000 Years Ago.” Australian Geographer, 47(1), 11–47. DOI: 10.1080/00049182.2015.1077539

Nunn, P.D. (2016). “Australian Aboriginal traditions about coastal change reconciled with postglacial sea-level history: a first synthesis.” Environment and History, 22(3), 393–420. DOI: 10.3197/096734016X14661540219311

Related earlier/conference work includes Reid, Nunn & Sharpe (2014) on Indigenous Australian stories and sea-level change (proceedings of the Foundation for Endangered Languages conference).

“The Legend of Budj Bim - The Story: The Gunditjmara [Dreaming] narrative tells of a creator being named Budj Bim ("high head") whose teeth and blood became the molten lava and scoria flowing to the sea during a violent eruption.The Science: Radiometric dating confirms the [Budj Bim] volcano last erupted approximately 37,000 years ago, meaning the oral tradition passed down through generations via songlines matches actual geological events from the Pleistocene epoch.”

Benjamin, J. et al. (2023). “Stone artefacts on the seabed at a submerged freshwater spring confirm a drowned cultural landscape in Murujuga, Western Australia.” Quaternary Science Reviews.

Scientific American coverage (2024) of related work by Mick O’Leary and others describes elders recognising digital models of now-submerged watering holes as part of a songline known for generations, consistent with a landscape from >7,000 years ago when sea levels were much lower.

Broader context appears in papers on Murujuga/Dampier Archipelago submerged archaeology (e.g., Benjamin et al. 2020 on the first confirmed Australian underwater Indigenous sites) and predictive modelling for the Rottnest Shelf (e.g., a 2025 Journal of Maritime Archaeology paper evaluating archaeological potential, which references Noongar stories of walking to Rottnest Island.”

Note: there is much, much more for you to discover - I’m only relaying the experience for which I have great affinity, having grown up visiting Rottnest Island myself, many times.

Stop being a dickhead about it, and go on the journey, mate.

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