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IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

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Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#71

Post by bitwize »

classichasclass wrote: post #11

This feels like a baby step towards Arm being able to emulate z/Arch workloads, maybe with a bit of secret sauce for certain specific operations, which doesn't seem very much like IBM.

Not even the weirdest thing IBM did to get compatibility between their mainframes and other CPU architectures. To build the XT/370 and AT/370 expansion cards, they custom-ordered modified 68000s that decoded System/370 instructions instead of the 68k instruction set, with most of the instructions handled by the new microcode and the few stragglers software-emulated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PC-based_IBM_main...

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#72

Post by Retric »

eschaton wrote: post #39
Retric wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you’re right. Xeon vs Xenon I had always assumed with chip names that similar it was an Intel product. How on earth didn’t they get sued?

Because simple similarity doesn’t usually result in a lawsuit? Especially if one of the words isn’t a public product name and also happens to be an existing word with no existing specific use in the industry.

Failing to defend trademarks for such similarity named and closely related products has extremely high risks.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#73

Post by trwei »

christkv wrote: post #26
bryanlarsen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is more like any modern processor, which translates instruction codes into micro-ops. To over-simplify IBM just has two of these units per thread rather than one.

I wonder how they handle potential differences in memory barriers, instruction order scheduling and other stuff and do they run the core in one mode continuously or do the mix instruction streams from different instruction sets? Anybody got a link to an article?

Z’s memory model is much stronger than arm, so running arm on z memory model requires almost no design changes. The inverse is not true.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#74

Post by eschaton »

Retric wrote: post #72
eschaton wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because simple similarity doesn’t usually result in a lawsuit? Especially if one of the words isn’t a public product name and also happens to be an existing word with no existing specific use in the industry.

Failing to defend trademarks for such similarity named and closely related products has extremely high risks.

“Xenon” is a pre-existing word. Intel’s not going to lose protection on “Xeon” for IBM using “Xenon” as an internal codename for their own CPU.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#75

Post by wmf »

bitwize wrote: post #69
wmf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The z mainframe team does good technical work but then the high price cancels out all the value of that work. I'm not sure if that counts as innovation or not.

A single mainframe can handle workloads that would take dozens of x86 cloud servers, with nine nines of uptime. If you can afford it it pays for itself in terms of reliability and scalability.

That may be true but the dozens of x86 servers are cheaper and easier to use.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#76

Post by Nursie »

crmd wrote: post #2

I was reading HN comments yesterday shitting on modern IBM for being a non tech consulting company that has not innovated since the mid nineties.

I was one of them, but I don't think IBM hasn't innovated, my contention is more that they have de-emphasised software and hardware in favour of services, and they've moved away from consumer-facing activity to be entirely B2B, and that there is an overall feeling of slow decline.

Their hardware advances are real, Power chips are still excellent and IBM's mainframes are pretty unique, but the niche for both of those seems less relevant over time and some of this stuff looks to me like hype-work to keep the name relevant while the leadership place ever more emphasis on enterprise services and consultancy.

Maybe I'm wrong, but they aren't a company that get mentioned in the same breath as Microsoft, Google, Nvidia or Apple, not any more.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#77

Post by wmf »

Melatonic wrote: post #68
rbanffy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM has better software support for AI applications and half of their presentation was about their inference accelerators that can go in the mainframes (and POWER machines). IBM mainframes are almost designed by their users. The previous generation skipped a lot of speed boost on the CPU side because their users didn’t want the machine to blow over their power delivery limits. Now, with their architecture behind it,…

Does anyone else make an ARM CPU that is expressly designed for performance with good cooling ?

It's not entirely clear what you're asking but... AGI, Vera, X2, Spark.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#78

Post by cpgxiii »

christkv wrote: post #26
bryanlarsen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is more like any modern processor, which translates instruction codes into micro-ops. To over-simplify IBM just has two of these units per thread rather than one.

I wonder how they handle potential differences in memory barriers, instruction order scheduling and other stuff and do they run the core in one mode continuously or do the mix instruction streams from different instruction sets? Anybody got a link to an article?

In general implementing a weaker memory model (e.g. aarch64) on a stronger memory model (e.g. x86_64 or s390x) is fairly easy, while the reverse is more difficult (see Apple's processors which have a dedicated "stronger" mode to better support execution of translated x86_64 code). It all requires some additional complexity, but starting from a complicated high-performance CISC architecture which already supports a wide range of backwards compatibility modes you are already going to have many of the building blocks on hand to support something new.

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#79

Post by flomo »

Nursie wrote: post #76
crmd wrote: post #2

I was reading HN comments yesterday shitting on modern IBM for being a non tech consulting company that has not innovated since the mid nineties.

I was one of them, but I don't think IBM hasn't innovated, my contention is more that they have de-emphasised software and hardware in favour of services, and they've moved away from consumer-facing activity to be entirely B2B, and that there is an overall feeling of slow decline. Their hardware advances are real, Power chips are still excellent and IBM's mainframes are pretty unique, but the niche for both of those…

Yeah, a huge chunk of IBM's service revenue has always been effectively mainframe services, with wall street accounting spin.

I suspect that almost zero companies adopted mainframes after 1980 or so, so it's ALL legacy market. However, IBM always invests a lot of money in hardware to keep the mainframe perceptually leading edge and "sexy", so they can hold-on to those customers. So you gotta give them credit for that.

(IBM and Microsoft were always 'in the same breath' for years, Microsoft totally out-smarted them, and IBM gave up on that.)

Re: IBM Unveils Next Generation Dual-Architecture Processor for IBM Z and LinuxONE

#80

Post by SoftTalker »

tempest_ wrote: post #32
wmf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The z mainframe team does good technical work but then the high price cancels out all the value of that work. I'm not sure if that counts as innovation or not.

At this point no one is buying into mainframes are they? So they are just selling to the existing pool of users for which the price just has to come in under the cost/risk of rewriting all their ancient stuff.

They are mostly leased, I think.
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