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Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

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Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#81
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

typos mean it's more likely to have been made by a careless human.

i make typos constantly (seriously, check my post history). i probably have typos in my resume. i just dont know why anybody should care. the meaning is still easily parseable. i cant imagine letting something so superficial matter

I make typos all the time as well, on stuff I am just writing off the cuff like a forum or chat message. But when it comes to something important, don't you check it over dozens of times? hundreds of times? A mere missing semicolon will make your code not compile. How could you let a superficial typo go uncorrected once you see it? How could you not see it when it's in the most obvious spot?

It suggests a certain lack of diligence; like you didn't proofread your work. What about the person that should have proofread it as a second opinion? Did this really follow a rigorous academic process at all? <- That's the first impression when the presentation is sloppy.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. Should Stripe or VISA count all charges made with their network as revenue?

Yes. Each industry has developed accounting standards that reflect the nature of their business. You couldn't run a bank or a payments company with a simple sales - COGS = gross profit model, it just wouldn't make sense. In health insurance specifically, profitability is somewhat regulated and this gets at the accounting issue here. Insurance companies should maintain a medical loss ratio of 80-85% meaning that fract…

Neither Stripe or Visa count passthrough dollars as revenue. Nor should they.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#84
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies often have a parent company. That parent company owns healthcare providers and pharmacies. So it goes something like this United Health Group -> United Health Insurance United Health Group -> Sunshine Hospital. United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Healt…

>United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Health Group. That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals. You might then say "hospitals aren't competitive, they're (regi…

> That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals.

Welcome to the Certificate of Need. A legal requirement in most states for creating a new healthcare facility. Ostensibly to make sure that the population in that area has adequate healthcare options. But lobbied for by healthcare facility and hospital owners, it actually surveys other providers (your competitors) in the area and asks if their revenue would be adversely affected by you opening up. Too much of this (i.e. "we're worried that a hospital might reduce coverage or shutdown if there's too much risk to their profit"), and no CoN for you.

And this is to say nothing of Pharma Benefits Management. Steering you towards their own more expensive pharmacy (which isn't profit-capped). Mine does it by saying "you want a more convenient >30 day prescription? Only through our wholly owned mail-order subsidiary". 30 day scripts at your local pharmacy. 90 day for the same med? Denied.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#85
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Health Group. That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals. You might then say "hospitals aren't competitive, they're (regi…

> That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals. Welcome to the Certificate of Need. A legal requirement in most states for creating a new healthcare facility. Ostensibly to make sure that the population in that area has adequate healthcare options. But lobbied for by healthcare facility and hospital owners,…

>which might be true, but if that were the case, you'd expect them to raise prices anyways. They're profit maximizing companies after all, not operating out of altruism.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#86
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your very substantive contribution to "they're abusing market power" is the observation "they could only do this if they have market power?" And you're wanting someone else to go demonstrate to you that the single entity that is both 1) largest health insurer and 2) largest health provider in the country has significant market power? I'll assume that this is legitimate ignorance and not a bad faith attempt to mudd…

>I'll assume that this is legitimate ignorance and not a bad faith attempt to muddy conversation, and I'll direct you to a few resources where you can read several years of extensive investigative reporting on the myriad ways the pay-vider structure enables acquisition and exploitation of market power: I read through the first 3 and can't tell how they're related, so I'm not going to check the rest. > https://www.eco…

You read through the first 3 links, including what... all 8 parts of the deep investigative work done by the leading healthcare publication with the subtitle "How UnitedHealth Group wields its unrivaled physician empire to boost its profits and expand its influence", and you came away thinking that this was unrelated to the topic at hand?

You read through all those 8 parts and didn't see how, for example, Part 5, titled "UnitedHealth pays its own physician groups considerably more than others, driving up consumer costs and its profits" is related to the question of whether or not they have and exploit market concentration to increase their profits?

And yes I can see how the Medicare fraud could seem unrelated to someone who demonstrably lacks curiosity while feigning it. But it's actually just a special variant of the exact same strategy someone else described at the top of this thread.

UHG takes on Medicare Advantage patients. Medicare pays UHG depending on the delta between the amount of care those patients are expected to receive versus the amount they actually receive.

The payer is incentivized to make their patients look sicker and to deliver less care to them. Traditionally, the provider has no such incentive and the payer has few levers to encourage them to do either behavior, but in this vertically concentrated model, they are the same entity and now the payer has tons of levers to get specific coding and care practices out of their owned providers.

Exact same dynamic as described in the very first comment, but under a VBC rather than fee-for-service model, and Medicare pays the bill.

> I did a cursory search and their national market share in insurance is around 15%, which really seems tough to have the economics work out

Maybe cursory searches of national market share is not the best way to understand market dynamics in something as complex as the US healthcare system. This is not an industry in which "national market share" is the same as actual market power. Healthcare is intrinsically hyperlocal – obviously. There are thousands of distinct healthcare markets, and UHG and its ilk are systematically capturing them one by one. We are trending toward a situation where 5 payviders each own 20% of the national market, but 100% of actual markets are owned by one player.

You would be naive to look at the 20% figure and say "no monopoly here! No need for me to look further into this despite clear evidence of successful execution of strategies that, by my own admission, could only possibly work with excessive market power!"

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#87

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

I think its more anologous to a bank giving out a loan. There, rhe bank doesnt count any principle repayments as revenue, only interest repayments. The principal repayments are what the bank is "returning" to whoever owned the money in the first place. The interest is for the banks actual financial service. The implication being that insurance providers arent providing medicine, they are providing financial liquidity just like the bank

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#88

@getnormality Two main differences: 1) medical loss ratio rules mean insurers are expected/required to pass a certain percent of premium on as payment for medical services, in a way that a grocery store is not required 2) insurer is selling you a contract that they will pay your medical bills if you have any - they are NOT retailing you medical services 3)

Insurers in the US actually are retailing you medical services. All the large insurers own huge (and growing) numbers of medical providers and they use their insurance plans to abuse non-owned medical providers into selling out to the insurer.

Separate issue yes I realize that you can always go out of network

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurers in the US actually are retailing you medical services. All the large insurers own huge (and growing) numbers of medical providers and they use their insurance plans to abuse non-owned medical providers into selling out to the insurer.

Separate issue yes I realize that you can always go out of network

...what?

You're saying that insurers aren't retailing you healthcare services despite the fact they are actually retailing you healthcare services, but in some cases you can choose to not use your insurance and buy healthcare from someone else?

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