Live data from Hacker News

Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

insurancewatchdogcoalition.com

21–30 of 89 posts

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#21
post #8

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

An intuitive explanation is that financial products are, approximately, buying and selling as part of the same transaction. You can't separate the "selling premiums" part from the "paying out claims" part. This is true of life insurance, investment firms, and banks. It's also true of marketplaces that connect buyers and sellers, like Etsy. Groceries stores are buying from suppliers and selling to consumers, but those…

I work for an insurance company so can shed some light here as this article is written by someone that clearly doesn't understand how the business model works.

Fundamentally every insurance company is governed by 3 ratios, loss ratio (what percentage of premium is paid to make the buyer of the insurance whole), expense ratio (cost of doing business, paying staff, keeping office lights on, paying vendors) and combined ratio (both of these combined). These are true for any insurance company which writes premium using their own capital, whether its health insurance, life insurance, property insurance, SMB insurance.

The thing this article is missing here is that the "pass through" costs are costs incurred by UHG directly, they are the ones paying the bills. How is this pass through, it's not being passed to the consumer, the only thing I pay is my deductible and retention which is at most a couple of thousand dollars, these are true costs borne by UHG. So in practice if I pay 100 bucks every paycheck, UHG is taking in 2600 bucks worth of premium, using average industry loss ratios which are say 60%, UHG is paying directly 1,560 bucks to care providers for my own care. I'm not paying that, what I pay is a deductible which is treated entirely separately.

I am the biggest insurance skeptic in the world because I think the business model is awful, a business's return on capital averages at 5-10% a year which is truly an awful return for how much capital is required. Insurance companies will make between 0 and 10% of underwriting profit a year (the pure profit from insurance premium minus total expenses) and they usually operate a very large investment vehicle invested typically 70% into bonds/gilts. That being said, this doctor's view of how insurance accounting works by comparing it to a biopharma or a trading brokerage firm is immensely disingenuous.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#22

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

Insurance companies often have a parent company. That parent company owns healthcare providers and pharmacies. So it goes something like this United Health Group -> United Health Insurance United Health Group -> Sunshine Hospital. United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Healt…

>United Health Insurance has a profit cap, it’s a % of revenue. Sunshine Hospital has no cap. So Sunshine Hospital charged United Health Insurance X$ and that profit rolls up to United Health Group.

That doesn't really work as a strategy unless UHI cornered the insurance market within a given region, otherwise they'd lose business to competing hospitals. You might then say "hospitals aren't competitive, they're (regional) monopolies!", which might be true, but if that were the case, you'd expect them to raise prices anyways. They're profit maximizing companies after all, not operating out of altruism.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#23

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

I'm not an accountant and don't claim to have a clean answer to how it should be accounted, but I hope I can highlight the conundrum.

Suppose you run a brokerage or some kind of marketplace enabling transactions. Should all transactions passing through your platform be considered your revenue? Or only the part that stays with you for the services you provide, while deducting the component which is simultaneously directed to the transaction counterparty?

In one simple perspective, calling these revenue and inventory would make sense only in a world where you hold on to the cash and the goods for extended periods, so they need to be appropriately accounted for in your books among cash flows and balances.

So what should be the correct accounting model for an insurance service that collects premiums and holds on to your money and pays later for services once you avail them?

I imagine that so long as they are taking on the risk of how much service you might avail rather than simply putting a stop at how much you've paid them in advance, then the premiums they collect ought to be considered revenue, to balance against the as yet unknown inventory costs.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#25
post #8

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

An intuitive explanation is that financial products are, approximately, buying and selling as part of the same transaction. You can't separate the "selling premiums" part from the "paying out claims" part. This is true of life insurance, investment firms, and banks. It's also true of marketplaces that connect buyers and sellers, like Etsy. Groceries stores are buying from suppliers and selling to consumers, but those…

[deleted]

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#26
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same tiem, lately I've been inserting small typos in my writing just to signal that it's not LLM generated. Nothing is a bigger red flag than a wall of text with perfect grammar and punctuation.

This reduces your credibility. If I was reading, I wouldn’t think “not llm,” I’d think “not detail oriented.” You may want to find some better way that doesn’t make people think less of you. Perfect grammar and punctuation is par for any publication.

There's Goldilocks zone for resumes where you want enough buzzwords to get past the recruiter but not so many that Hiring manager would reject you.

I know what gp is saying. They want to stay credible to the general public without also bearing the over-polished and verbose hallmark of LLM.

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#28

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

I just scanned the doc but I think your question is the core argument of the doc. It explicitly says that United is using standard accounting practices and proposes the “pass through” mechanism as a “better” metric. Based on the source I, personally, don’t find it to be a credible argument

> It explicitly says that United is using standard accounting practices and proposes the “pass through” mechanism as a “better” metric.

>Based on the source I, personally, don’t find it to be a credible argument

Agreed. This just has "if we redefine [commonly used term], then we get a more shocking/favorable number for our cause" vibes. You see this in government statistics as well, eg. "the official unemployment rate might be 4% (or whatever), but if you factor in people who are discouraged and people who are underemployed (whatever that means), it's actually 15%!" or "the official poverty rate might be 10%, but if you redefine 'poverty' to mean 'not being able to raise a family of 4 on a single income', the actual poverty rate is 40%!"

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#29

It's hard for me to trust this PDF when there's literally a typo directly under the author's name: "analyitcs"

At the same tiem, lately I've been inserting small typos in my writing just to signal that it's not LLM generated. Nothing is a bigger red flag than a wall of text with perfect grammar and punctuation.

Lol, LLMs do some thing better, and some things worse than humans. And you're showing your humanity by purposefully being worse at LLM qualities, instead of beign good at human qualities?

Re: Study reveals UnitedHealth's profit margins four times what it claimed [pdf]

#30

> Conventional accounting measures portray large health insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UHG) as earning relatively low profit margins because they treat premium dollars that are subsequently paid out in medical claims as revenue. However, these medical claims are pass-through costs, not income retained by the insurer. I don't understand this claim. Doesn't every business have costs to make its goods and services…

I believe they are saying that only the portion of premiums paid by UHG customers _that are not_ spent on paying out claims should be counted as UHG revenue. That is if I and my employer pay UHG $18,000 over the course of the year and UHG pays out $2,500 to my doctors and to cover my prescriptions, only the remaining $15,500 should be counted as UHG revenue.

The thinking here is that because UHG is legally obligated to pay out claims, this money only "passes through" their hands. I believe the legal obligation is the thing here.

Anyway, if these pass through costs (the claims they are legally obligated to pay) are removed from the equation then their revenue number is smaller and their profit margin is larger.

Post reply on HN