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It's not the end of programming

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Re: It's not the end of programming

#81

Post by trashb »

I suppose the author is pointing at the fact that coding != programming. The term "programming" is wider applicable than just in relation with computers.

Though I don't quite agree with the analogy. To me it seems more like the difference between writing with pen & paper or typing, digital vs analog drawing or printing press vs photo copier. There are some significant changes in how to use the tool properly (can't backspace/undo on physical). However the essence of writing a good story is not in the typing/penning it transcends that. At the same time it is true that different individuals may produce better output with one or the other due to personal preferences or adapting a different creative process.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#82

Post by bgarbiak »

chrisjj wrote: post #79
bgarbiak wrote: post #57

The responses about code quality, wisdom that comes with experience, etc. are missing the big picture: no one will ever care about any of this as long as things work as explained in the prompt. Eventual shortcomings will be fixed not by looking into the code, but by typing in another prompt, asking another agent. Doing it manually will not bring any value to anyone. I saw it already with my own eyes: a friend of mine…

> Eventual shortcomings will be fixed not by looking into the code, but by typing in another prompt, asking another agent. So, you'll rely on the tech that created buggy code to somehow suddenly create bug-free code?

Isn’t it the same as relying on human developers?

Gotchas aside: I’m not saying the end of programming is a good thing. I’m just saying: it’s happening. Unless the LLM tech will suddenly hit any sort of ceiling.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#83

Post by vb-8448 »

chrisjj wrote: post #77
vb-8448 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn’t really matter if code was written by human or llm In theory no, but for a successful execution you must have people that understand what's going on, otherwise the competitor that understands will eat you. > who cares how was it written. In the pre AI era a lot of sw was written by interns, juniors, some bigcon consultants, some offshore indian or east-european dudes, it didn't even matter before.

> who cares how was it written. Everyone who wants it to work properly.

We live in a world where a broken feature is far more important than no-feature.

Companies used to release broken software on purpose since a very long time.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#84

Post by respectattentio »

kuboble wrote: post #11
respectattentio wrote: post #5

programming has changed and leveled up due to ai it's as big as going from zeros and ones to assembly language

I think the shift is bigger. In the 01->asm revolution you needed people with roughly the same kind of talent, background and education. Just a different specialization. Now, writing software is available to people who would have never been able to learn it before.

You have a point! It appears bigger.

That's due to the compound effect I guess

(more internet users -> more data -> better models -> fast repeat).

Even though 01 -> asm was revolutionary, but its loop was not as big and as fast as AI.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#85

Post by archagon »

kodoman wrote: post #60
fnoef wrote: post #18

People keep giving examples like printed press, or whatever, but honestly the printed press did kill writing/drawing by hand. When was the last time you bought a hand written book or a hand painted picture? Sure, they still exist, but they are priced and marketed towards a specific class of people, and not the mass. And with software it’s even harder as software was never targeted at the mass. Software was always a b…

Printing press did not kill writing at all, only the job of scribes. One still had to write their ideas down and work on a manuscript and some one had to set the press up (not trivial at all). All that is to say that I think the ability to write code from scratch is still necessary while I don't really think the printing press metaphor is apt I think being able to write scripts and write small programs to do stuff yo…

A worrying number of “engineers” here seem to think that programming is a purely mechanical process with little actual thought involved.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#88

Post by ThunderSizzle »

pydry wrote: post #54
marginalia_nu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Printing presses are not typewriters. The printing press did displace the manual copying of manuscripts, which had insanely low bandwidth and generally kinda sucked for everyone involved. But for several hundred years after, until the industrial revolution and the mass production of mechanical typewriters, pretty much everything printed on a printing press was originally authored by hand. Even with typewriters handwr…

One thing that strikes me about these discussions is just how awful the metaphors are. We're constantly being told that jobs designing and building skyscrapers are close to obsolete because some yokel made a factory that manufactures yurts. Writing hand crafted code for the sole use of an individual never happened. Writing hand crafted code to be run by millions of people is routine. You can't compare it to a spinnin…

Most code I write these days are never directly consumed by anyone or anything. Daily or monthly batch jobs that help keep the data flowing correctly.

Re: It's not the end of programming

#89

Post by spicyusername »

user43928 wrote: post #73
spicyusername wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I keep discovering about the agentic era of programming is that all of the old lessons and bits of wisdom about programming are still valid. They're just 10 to 100x more important now that you can generate 10,000 lines in an hour. e.g. Break your code up into loosely coupled modules, don't have leaky abstractions, don't have huge God files, have good black box end-to-end testing, do the design work before t…

In my experience little of what you said is important is actually needed: > Break your code up into loosely coupled modules > don't have leaky abstractions Not needed. The AI handles breaking up code and I mostly don't review abstractions. > don't have huge God files Less true than ever. The AI can read a 10k line file the same way it can read 20 files with 500 lines. > have good black box end-to-end testing The AI d…

    The AI handles
    The AI handles
    The AI does
That's what I'm saying... in the new era these things are more important than ever to better keep agentic programming on track...

Re: It's not the end of programming

#90

Post by kodoman »

archagon wrote: post #85
kodoman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Printing press did not kill writing at all, only the job of scribes. One still had to write their ideas down and work on a manuscript and some one had to set the press up (not trivial at all). All that is to say that I think the ability to write code from scratch is still necessary while I don't really think the printing press metaphor is apt I think being able to write scripts and write small programs to do stuff yo…

A worrying number of “engineers” here seem to think that programming is a purely mechanical process with little actual thought involved.

And seem to hold in contempt wanting to understand and think. So many just want to parrot what they hear wealthy people say and the idea of human though activity and research and contemplation being obsolete feels them with a twisted sense of joy.
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