Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why some US restaurants are banning tips

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 416 posts

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#381

Post by SkiFire13 »

xyzelement wrote: post #127
SkiFire13 wrote: post #96

The thing that bugs me about tips is the fact they are a percentage. Why am I supposed to tip more if I ordered something more expensive but the service is equally good?

In general a higher bill is a proxy for a larger meal of more people in a more high-end establishment so it tracks well. I agree if you had the $200 sea food tower by yourself it deviates from that otherwise perfect proxy. But that's already a weird situation so just pay the tip and move on.

It's not a good enough proxy for more people. If you compare the least and most costly items on a menu, even adjusting for size, you'll find that there's often a 2x to 4x difference between them. If I pick one over the other I will also have to pay 2x to 4x in tip. That just doesn't checkout.

Also, why do you need a proxy for the number of people when you can just count them? In Europe a service charge is relatively common and it's a per-person fixed charge.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#382

Post by arjie »

account42 wrote: post #345
yuye wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not American, but from what I've heard about the wait times at the DMV, I'm sure many would love the option to tip 20% for faster service.

Then they would be shortsighted because before no time you would need to tip 20% minimum to get even the quality of service you get now.

It would be pretty neat to actually have the thing funded through a revenue neutral ticketing scheme. i.e. you just auction off tickets for 4 week blocks. That will allow people who are time-sensitive to appropriately select, and if you make more than you need you can just rebate participants proportional to their spend. Might be a pretty good way to allocate the scarce resource.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#383

Post by ludicrousdispla »

tossandthrow wrote: post #138
getfacl wrote: post #31

The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. Essentially a comm…

> Instead of checking on the customer every few minutes This is likely one of the absolute worst features of the US dining system. So many times I have been sitting in deep conversation with friends or colleagues just for a waiter to claim all attention to ask if we want to have refilled water. That they can even push themselves to such rude behavior is entirely insane to me.

I find this scene from a popular TV show captures it well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjfQ6soLSAU&t=12s

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#384

Post by xtracto »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #361
xtracto wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will always feel rude to me how in the USA the waiters leave the check at tge table a couple of minutes after they bring your food. What if I want something else later? It feels as if he/she "finished" with your table and you are SOL if you want anything else.

I've never had that happen and ive lived in the US my whole life. Must be a regional thing. I've never gotten a check before asking for it.

Interesting, Ive had it happen in Chicago, California and Indiana. At Dennis, iHOP and some other more regional restaurants.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#385

Post by palata »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #375
palata wrote: post #43

> the problem of going tip-free is that customers struggle to get their heads around the maths. Maybe they should show the price "without tip" next to the full price, so people can compare. Paying employees with tips is an insane concept, fundamentally abusive. If it wasn't, then the owner would also get paid from tips. "The meals are all free, and we count on you to pay them through tips". Obviously no owner would t…

The entire point of tips is that they are the workers', 100%. It's also a variable cost based on the willingness to pay, so it creates a form of price discrimination, where those willing to spend more, spend more, those wanting to spend less, spend less. Those two factors lead to the inescapable conclusion that tipped staff make more money . Price discrimination captures surplus value that simply is not available to…

You sound a lot more like an owner than an employee. Have you ever been relying on tips to survive? I mean someone who does not benefit from the system, I'm sure some employees benefit from it, in some cases.

> Those two factors lead to the inescapable conclusion that tipped staff make more money

Or have you ever... talked with someone who relied on tips to survive, in an environment where they don't benefit from it?

> Price discrimination captures surplus value that simply is not available to schemes that don't use price discrimination, and any new price discrimination scheme would almost certainly benefit the employer at least in addition to the employees, if not be entirely captured by the owners.

Would you mind formulating that in a simpler way? Sounds like "price discrimination captures more value, which benefits the owners". Which is kind of confirming my point that tips are a way for owners to abuse the employees.

> Combined with the, let's say "extra judicial tax incentives"

Sure, the law incentivises the owners to abuse the employees. That is insane, too.

> because if they were competent they would be working somewhere that competency would earn them tips

"If I am rich that's because I am better, because why would I be rich otherwise?". Again it sounds a lot more like an owner than an employee.

Don't get me wrong: I understand why an owner may want to abuse employees in order to make more profit. Humans suck, that's old news. I'm just saying that the whole point of regulations is to counter the fact that humans suck.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#386

Post by techgnosis »

There are subtleties that matter a lot. For example, in Washington state (WA), wait staff are paid normal full hourly wages. There is no such thing as a "tipped employee" who makes tiny hourly wage and supplements with tips.

Because of this, I am trying (with some success) to simply tip less at restaurants. Restaurant wait staff, in WA at least, is coasting on old rules and general voter ignorance.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#387

Post by bjourne »

alecbz wrote: post #250
bjourne wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, many Europeans have the "equal work, equal pay" mantra drilled into them. Tip-based salaries are the complete anti-thesis to that. It is obvious that better-looking younger women get more tips than those without those characteristics. It rubs me and many others the wrong way; hence, I never tip because that is always fair. As a customer I 100% prefer "worse" service over having to deal with the tipping BS. Amer…

At restaurants at least, most people I know just default tip 20% and only adjust up or down in pretty rare circumstances. Maybe it’s different in other parts of the US or for other generations, but I recall studies supporting that people generally have a set percent they always tip.

You recall wrong. :) The evidence that tipping is inherently unjust is overwhelming: https://freakonomics.com/2008/03/the-racial-tipping-point/ The post about race but the results very obviously apply to other characteristics too. Though I very well understand that most people don't care much for evidence when it contradicts their anecdata.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#388

Post by techgnosis »

yuye wrote: post #291
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #21

Good. Tipping creates so much mental overhead and unnecessary bad feelings on everyone's part.

The thing I hate the most is tipping at bars. 20% tip when all you do is pour my beers, which I have to order at the bar and bring to my table myself? Insane.

Just don't tip 20% when all you got was beer? I tip $1 a beer (at most) when the beers are $8. Sometimes I only tip on some of the beers.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#389

Post by navane »

Freak_NL wrote: post #220
rapnie wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the Netherlands the general rule is to tip up to 10% depending how good the service was, unless it was excellent and you go higher. When drinking a couple coffees in a restaurant it is okay to tip with a single Euro for good service, even if that doesn't amount to 10%.

This is despite the unfortunate and rude trend of payment devices now offering a big dickover screen filled with obscene tip suggestions first (25% in a fucking chain fastfood place?), because with the decline of cash the old way of rounding up the bill dies out too.

There's always the zero button and I always mash it happily.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#390

Post by soderfoo »

tossandthrow wrote: post #138
getfacl wrote: post #31

The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. Essentially a comm…

> Instead of checking on the customer every few minutes This is likely one of the absolute worst features of the US dining system. So many times I have been sitting in deep conversation with friends or colleagues just for a waiter to claim all attention to ask if we want to have refilled water. That they can even push themselves to such rude behavior is entirely insane to me.

Seems like poor training and professionalism. Well run establishments typically train staff in silent service for this very reason, to not interrupt guest conversations.
Post reply on HN