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Why some US restaurants are banning tips

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Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#371

Post by SwiftyBug »

xyzelement wrote: post #288
kakacik wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world doesn't tip or does it very casually. Keep this aspect of US culture to yourself please, we see it as crap to be polite and artifact of worker's abuse and exploitation thats typical for US compared to all other western world.

You are entitled to that opinion. But when you are visiting the US you have to follow our custom and tip.

Do I have to tip _well_, though? What's a neutral tip? I agree that while visiting your country, I should try and follow social norms there, but at least let's make official how much I should tip. I do not really have a very clear understanding of what good service is in comparison to bad service. Restaurant service to me is pretty much the same or, at least, I can't tell the difference.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#372

Post by ryandrake »

JohnFen wrote: post #328
yuye wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common where I live in Asia, and they almost always write it on their menu, too. I don't really see it as shenanigans as long as it's communicated in advance. We don't have a tipping culture, though.

They disclose it in the US as well. It's shenanigans to me because it's sneaky. Rather than being honest an increasing the price of the food, they're using a "service fee" separately to try to trick you into thinking the restaurant is less expensive than it is. I genuinely find it offensive, for pretty much the same reason that I find tipping culture offensive.

Yea, taken to the extreme, I don't think anyone would think it's fair:

Restaurant A's pasta is $14.95, printed clearly on the menu.

Restaurant B's pasta is $13, with a 15% service fee written in tiny letters on the menu somewhere.

Restaurant C's pasta is $2.99, with a 500% service fee written in tiny letters on the menu somewhere.

You're paying the same thing at each restaurant. If you think C is sneaky and unethical (which I hope everyone would), then why is B ok?

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#373

Post by nitwit005 »

KellyCriterion wrote: post #55

Very often regarding those articles, you read in the comments different varieties of "good service": - may I ask: What does this actually mean? I have never been to a "high class" or "fine dining" location, so maybe my expectations are in general not high. My expectations are just simple: Give me the menu quickly, let me order quickly, let me eat and let me pay quickly. Thats it. What do I miss? EDIT: Im located in E…

As with many other products, they do have an incentive to claim you're receiving something special.

Mostly yes, there's not much extra they can deliver besides a better staff to customer ratio.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#374

Post by OkayPhysicist »

zarzavat wrote: post #279
irishcoffee wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very amusing to me that in a different part of this thread people are complaining that the waiter doesn't come by enough, and here the complaint is the opposite.

The critical difference for me is if they ask while you're eating , perhaps 5 minutes after serving your table, that's OK it means they are genuinely interested in improving your experience and it's an opportunity to correct minor problems. If they ask after you've eaten, that would be rude, from my British perspective.

The after-meal ask is to see if 1) you want dessert or 2) you want your soft drink refilled or to purchase an additional alcoholic beverage. Honestly, I think the "waiters keep pestering me" perception from Europeans is heavily influenced by the refill checks, which by-and-large aren't a thing in Europe.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#375

Post by OkayPhysicist »

palata wrote: post #43

> the problem of going tip-free is that customers struggle to get their heads around the maths. Maybe they should show the price "without tip" next to the full price, so people can compare. Paying employees with tips is an insane concept, fundamentally abusive. If it wasn't, then the owner would also get paid from tips. "The meals are all free, and we count on you to pay them through tips". Obviously no owner would t…

The entire point of tips is that they are the workers', 100%. It's also a variable cost based on the willingness to pay, so it creates a form of price discrimination, where those willing to spend more, spend more, those wanting to spend less, spend less.

Those two factors lead to the inescapable conclusion that tipped staff make more money. Price discrimination captures surplus value that simply is not available to schemes that don't use price discrimination, and any new price discrimination scheme would almost certainly benefit the employer at least in addition to the employees, if not be entirely captured by the owners.

Combined with the, let's say "extra judicial tax incentives", non-tipping restaurants simply cannot compete with tipping-norm restaurants for service staff. In an environment where tipping exists everywhere else, you then get an adverse selection pressure for shitty waitstaff, because if they were competent they would be working somewhere that competency would earn them tips. Which piles on top of the dealignment of incentives to create substantially lower quality service.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#376

Post by nunez »

I actually love tipping! I have no issues hitting the 20%/25%/30% button on the tablet, and giving someone a really nice tip after being provided with great service always makes me feel great.

That said, I also sympathize with people who don't feel this way. It would be nice if we could federally ban tips and re-architect wage tables for hospitality workers so that they can continue getting paid well for what is a very intense job.

The only way no-tipping works is if it's federally banned, since it's well known that FoH makes great money from tips despite the terrible legal min wage and nobody with experience will give that up for a place that doesn't allow tips.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#377

Post by stasomatic »

vages wrote: post #158
QuantumNomad_ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least they don’t demand a bunch of extra tips. I’m European (well, Scandinavian, which some Europeans consider European and some don’t) and my rule of thumb is that if I go out I tip 10%. If the service is extra good I might tip extra. If the service is very bad (unreasonably slow, or staff forget or mix up the order in a significant way, or they are very rude), I tip 0%. Of course everyone can mess up things a li…

I'm also Scandinavian (Norwegian), and I never tip when going out. I can't think of any long-term outcome of a tipping culture that is efficient for the workers and employers, even if the amount the customer tipped was correlated with quality (the research I've read shows it's got more to do with looks). It is simply more efficient that both parties know what they are agreeing to up front when (1) the worker still ha…

I tip (live in US) as we are shamed into it, but I find the relationship between the customer and staff subservient and dehumanizing. The service folks must do the dance and check on you every 5 minutes ("Are we doing good here, hon?) while I in turn must come up with a fake smile and a thumbs up. What else am I gonna do? It's all kinds of weird but unlikely to change.

A couple of decades ago I had a waiter run out to the street after me, midtown Manhattan, a sushi/tappas place, sternly inquiring as to why I didn't tip them. I simply forgot, it was very late. I didn't need that.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#378

Post by exolymph »

xtracto wrote: post #322
getfacl wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spend about equal time in the USA and split between France, Germany, and The Netherlands. Personally, I find the service in USA restaurants to be obnoxious, overly fake, and disruptive. I generally only go out to eat in Europe because I prefer a peaceful meal rather than a rushed one with a side of fake friendship.

It will always feel rude to me how in the USA the waiters leave the check at tge table a couple of minutes after they bring your food. What if I want something else later? It feels as if he/she "finished" with your table and you are SOL if you want anything else.

Huh. I wish this was the norm in my area, so I didn't have to wait around for the check once I finish eating.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#379

Post by OkayPhysicist »

SwiftyBug wrote: post #371
xyzelement wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are entitled to that opinion. But when you are visiting the US you have to follow our custom and tip.

Do I have to tip _well_, though? What's a neutral tip? I agree that while visiting your country, I should try and follow social norms there, but at least let's make official how much I should tip. I do not really have a very clear understanding of what good service is in comparison to bad service. Restaurant service to me is pretty much the same or, at least, I can't tell the difference.

A neutral tip for table service is somewhere between 15% and 25%. If you're in that range, you're not explicitly sending a signal to staff that you are exceptionally pleased or displeased. 15% might come off as a bit cheap, 25% as a bit generous, but the waitstaff will assume it's a you thing as opposed to a "your opinion of them" thing. Above or below that, and you're making a statement, intentionally or not. Less than 15%, you're saying you were displeased with the service you were provided. Only ever go below 10% if staff took deliberate action against you, and don't go back to that restaurant again.

At bars, 20%, or a buck or two a beer is perfectly acceptable. Cocktails should be tipped better, tied to how much effort it takes to prepare them. If you're going to be at the same bar for a few drinks, consider tipping generously on the first drink to help you get quicker service on future drinks.

At hotels, leave housekeeping $5-$10 a night, using the pen and pad of paper in the bedside drawer to leave a note indicating that the cash is for them.

10% on rideshares and taxis, $5-$10 on food delivery.

Pretty sure that's a pretty exhaustive list of places it's a significant faux pas to not tip. You'll be prompted to tip at a lot of fast-casual (order at the counter) places, but it's unlikely to be taken an insult if you don't. Anything higher than 10% is exceptional.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#380

Post by ryandvm »

Tyr42 wrote: post #98
walrus01 wrote: post #33

We need to at least normalize not tipping for counter service. Given the current wage structures and labor laws in the US and Canada, if I sit down at a table and I receive table service, I'm going to tip 15% unless the service was abhorrent. I am not going to tip if I order and take my food from a counter and serve myself (and then almost certainly clear my own table as well), or I buy any other form of product stan…

And you are tipping before you even see the service in that case, as you pay before the food. Of course, the staff also see how you tio before they prep your food...

> Of course, the staff also see how you tio before they prep your food...

Lol. Yeah, that's where the game theory breaks down for me.

I'm all for not tipping people that don't interact with you directly until I start thinking about how the 17-year-old making my pizza feels about tipping on pick-up orders...

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