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Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

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Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#151

Post by singpolyma3 »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #74
1970-01-01 wrote: post #17

XMPP is the pinnacle of chat that just works. And it is champion by default, which is kind of the point here. All other popular systems and servers went defunct; it will never be taken over by BigCo and left to rot. Here's to 25 more years!

> XMPP is the pinnacle of chat that just works. Except no. You can't even have a conversation between Conversations and Fluux because OMEMO is enabled by default in Conversations and there is just no OMEMO support in Fluux - despite it being actually modern one. Gajim works but Pidgin doesn't even show "I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that". Just like images, which is a f…

Fluux is brand new and 100% vibecoded, so not surprising if it has some rough edges.

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#152

Post by tcfhgj »

pixelschubsi wrote: post #141
tensor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about their signal integration? https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/

The open protocol variant of that is called OMEMO. Same double ratchet and implemented using Signal's library (the same as used by WhatsApp) in many XMPP clients

> the same as used by WhatsApp

source? wouldn't that be a license violation?

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#154

Post by lxgr »

rtpg wrote: post #142
lxgr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> notifications is a solved problem. Eh, last time I tried I still got leftover notifications for messages I had long read and even replied to on a different client hanging around on my other devices. (To be fair, Matrix does the same thing too, but only in roughly 50% of all cases, which is much more infuriating than something I can at least understand as a fundamental protocol limitation and not a weird implementat…

> Ideally, I'd like to have me@mydomain.com as my persistent XMPP ID that I can freely migrate across servers just by updating a DNS record without having to worry too much about who is actually hosting the server. The AT protocol does this right. I suppose here you're saying "I should be able to do this without providers having to do work"? Like you show up with lxgr@foo.com to bar.com and create an account, and eve…

Not quite. I'd like to have lxgr@example.com hosted at xmpp.foo.com today, but if foo.com shuts down unexpectedly one day, I'd like to be able to redirect it to xmpp.bar.com.

I might lose my chat history and maybe my contact list if I don't have a local backup of it, but people would still be able to reach me as lxgr@example.com. Ideally, I'd be able to upload my local, end-to-end encrypted backup to xmpp.bar.com and continue exactly where I left off.

AT proto's main innovation to me is decoupling the concerns of user identifier and data host at the protocol level, in the same way that DNS and my web or mail host are decoupled.

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#156

Post by eddieroger »

delduca wrote: post #10

It was so cool when facebook, google and others used to use xmpp, at that time I used a single IM client https://adium.im

One of my happiest open source memories was creating an Adiumy skin for my college and others actually downloading and using it. The app was huge. Those were the days.

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#157

Post by goffi »

lxgr wrote: post #154
rtpg wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ideally, I'd like to have me@mydomain.com as my persistent XMPP ID that I can freely migrate across servers just by updating a DNS record without having to worry too much about who is actually hosting the server. The AT protocol does this right. I suppose here you're saying "I should be able to do this without providers having to do work"? Like you show up with lxgr@foo.com to bar.com and create an account, and eve…

Not quite. I'd like to have lxgr@example.com hosted at xmpp.foo.com today, but if foo.com shuts down unexpectedly one day, I'd like to be able to redirect it to xmpp.bar.com. I might lose my chat history and maybe my contact list if I don't have a local backup of it, but people would still be able to reach me as lxgr@example.com. Ideally, I'd be able to upload my local, end-to-end encrypted backup to xmpp.bar.com and…

Hey. I'm currently working on this: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0516.html

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#158

Post by svyatoslavpavl »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #24
svyatoslavpavl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jitsi Meet still runs on XMPP, Prosody handles the signaling. WhatsApp also started life as a patched ejabberd.

WhatsApp is still based on XMPP unless things have changed a lot recently.

The protocol is still their stripped down XMPP dialect, yeah. I meant the server side: they rewrote most of the original ejabberd over the years, but it stayed Erlang.

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#159

Post by JadedBlueEyes »

ezst wrote: post #136
JadedBlueEyes wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean for alternative servers, 10% of people use Continuwuity and it looks pretty spec-complete [0] and more than enough to be useful. [0]: https://forgejo.ellis.link/continuwuation/continuwuity/issue...

Last I checked (couple years ago?) it was ill-advised to use anything but Synapse, because: - you would be at the mercy of very real and frequent federation problems (Matrix being so implementation-dependent and centred around Synapse ; like, the json serialization format is better described as "whatever order and structure python's stdlib is doing"¹) - there is no non-destructive way back to another server (the open…

1) That hasn't been a problem for at least half a decade.

2) What do you even mean? I've literally deleted my entire database and then spun up a new server on the same domain before, it does not matter, other servers do not care! The worst that could happen is messages from the original server can no longer be verified as valid - and even that isn't a problem in practice.

Re: Jabber/XMPP: 25 Years of Digital Independence

#160

Post by account42 »

ezst wrote: post #117
lxgr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Matrix is a much better conceptual fit for the IRC/Slack-like use case where users expect substantial messaging history to persist across new devices and often even for members newly joining a channel. XMPP started out as a message routing protocol, with server-side history (for individual users or channels) bolted on as an afterthought; Matrix is modeled around conversations/channels as a first-c…

> Matrix is a much better conceptual fit for the IRC/Slack-like use case Debatable, this mostly boils down to the client design choices and priorities, and has little to nothing to do with the protocol. Someone came-up with a metaphor I like to illustrate it: the banquet and the barbecue¹. XMPP has "barbecue"-style clients like Conversations, Kaidan, Dino?, and other that are rather "banquet"-style like Gajim, Fluux,…

> We had a bit of that with pidgin 8-or-so years ago.

8 years ago? Pidgin still doesn't do MAM today.

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