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Why some US restaurants are banning tips

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Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#321

Post by alecbz »

Yizahi wrote: post #71
jamisteven wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LMFAO, have you ever been to a restaurant in Europe? The service is horrific. Sit down and wait 15 minutes for the menus, another 15 to place a drink order, another 10 for the drinks to get there, another 10 to place food order. Now you finish the meal, good luck getting the waiters attention to bring the check. European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white h…

I've been in hundreds of not fancy restaurants across Europe in my life, in many countries. The service speed in like 95% of all cases is at maximum or vary close to it. It's between 0 to 1-2 minutes to get menu, then 0 to 1-2 minute to flag a waiter and order, and that all delays possibly induced by the serving staff. The rest is just how long it takes to cook and is not relevant here. So maybe USA shaves off a few…

Knowing to flag down a waiter is probably a big part of the equation. In the US waiters will generally come on their own to take your order fairly quickly and so we’re less used to flagging them down. And in a lot of places in Europe waiters won’t ask to bring the check, it’s on you to ask for it.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#322

Post by xtracto »

getfacl wrote: post #41
sylvainkalache wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am french, living in the US: yes, service is always included in France, but service is usually not that good. At least, definitely not as good as in the US.

I spend about equal time in the USA and split between France, Germany, and The Netherlands. Personally, I find the service in USA restaurants to be obnoxious, overly fake, and disruptive. I generally only go out to eat in Europe because I prefer a peaceful meal rather than a rushed one with a side of fake friendship.

It will always feel rude to me how in the USA the waiters leave the check at tge table a couple of minutes after they bring your food. What if I want something else later?

It feels as if he/she "finished" with your table and you are SOL if you want anything else.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#323

Post by philipallstar »

inigyou wrote: post #236
philipallstar wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely efficient for the worker. There's no employee tax or income tax on that money. The worker just gets the money directly.

There is, but they're all tax evaders.

Not if there's no tax on tips.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#324

Post by GuB-42 »

garbawarb wrote: post #259
getfacl wrote: post #31

The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. Essentially a comm…

They're not just incentivized to upsell, but also to get you out of the door as quickly as possible so they can get the next customers in. It makes for a much less pleasant dining experience than, say, France where waiters are generally hands-off.

It is kind of a culture shock between France and the US:

- French visiting the US: why is the waiter coming at us, does he want us out?

- American visiting France: what is the waiter waiting for, didn't he notice we are finished?

If France, if the waiter comes after you have finished your meal and asks you if you are done, it is usually a polite way of asking you to leave, usually because the restaurant is about to close. You are supposed to call the waiter when you are done, or, more commonly in casual restaurants, go pay at the cash register.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#325

Post by inigyou »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #265
inigyou wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of pessimism is caused by the current inequality.

A lot of pessimism is caused by the relative change of inequality.

True. Feudalism was the norm throughout human history.

But those nobles had limited power because they didn't have the communications technology we have today.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#326

Post by toomuchtodo »

raegis wrote: post #57
getfacl wrote: post #31

The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. Essentially a comm…

> The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. Are you sure? I've seen way more staff shortages in real life restaurants over the past 5-6 years than any other time in my life.

The US restaurant industry runs/ran on exploited, immigrant labor, which is now in short supply for obvious reasons.

https://foodinstitute.com/focus/labor-shortages-costly-probl...

> Nearly 16 million people worked in restaurants last year, representing about 10% of the national workforce, and 62% of operators said recruiting and keeping employees is a real headache. “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide.

> “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide. Eric said deportation is compounding the problem, considering government data shows 37% of cooks and 5% of dishwashers are foreign-born.

https://restaurant.org/research-and-media/research/restauran...

These jobs can be filled with domestic US workers, simply pay living wages.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#327

Post by jasode »

getfacl wrote: post #285
jasode wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the server "owns" the customer and are the one who will collect the tip from that table. In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool with the runners, busboys, and kitchen staff. The % may not be equal however. >What you are noticing is that many chains have a "full hands" rule: But that contradicts the idea that "USA restaurants almost always over staffed there." The chain restaurant cou…

> In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool This doesn't change anything because the incentive is still to drive up the bill to drive up the tips. This is caused by the staff being primarily paid in tips. > The chain restaurant could just "overstaff" with dedicated table runners with no need for a "full hands" rule. Unlike servers, bussers and runners are generally paid minimum wage or c…

>Only over staffing servers helps make more income.

There are several gaps in your assertion about USA restaurants being overstaffed with servers.

#1 the mathematical relationship between servers and income is questionable: Servers acting as quasi commissioned salespeople by upselling patrons on "another beer?" or "anyone here want to order desert?" ... can be time-staggered interactions across multiple customers as the server rotates among their assigned tables.

Let's say, a restaurant has 20 tables and initially has 5 servers. Each server rotates among their assigned 4 tables. For a single turnover of 1 set of 20 tables, the diners have been asked(upsell) "Do you want desert?" 20 times. Let's say the owner wants to "overstaff the # servers" to be 1-for-1 and have 20 servers to 20 tables. The # of upsell events is still the same at 20. In what scenarios do overstaffing servers increase restaurant's income? (On the other hand, understaffing servers causes diners to twiddle their thumbs for half an hour after they finished eating because the overbusy server hasn't gotten them the final bill yet which causes less turnover of the tables which leads to less restaurant income.)

It's also not clear why you need tipped servers to upsell. Fast food places like McDonalds have trained minimum wage workers to constantly upsell... "Do you want fries with that? Do you want to upsize that drink?"

#2 the economics equilibrium of what tipped servers want to be paid and whatever staffing levels the restaurant owners want. Trying to overstaff the restaurant means waitstaff notice they don't work as many tables which means their tips (thus total income) is lower. This causes them to quit, which then causes the restaurant to keep trying to hire new waitstaff. Many restaurants chronically run "shorthanded" because of this negative feedback loop. (Which is one of the causes of extra delays between the hostess seating the diners and the time the waiter finally shows up.) Therefore, adding more servers to increase restaurant income isn't going to work.

>USA restaurant staffing is widely studied

The only studies I found analyzed restaurants not being able to hire staff including the servers. No study talked about restaurants having overstaffed servers in the USA as a proven driver of extra income.

EDIT to reply: >In Europe a typical place with 20 tables will have 2-3 servers and no runners. We go from 8-10 floor staff down to 2-3.

Your premise doesn't work for USA because with the hypothetical American restaurant that only has 3 servers with no runners and those 3 all sharing the workload "as a team" for all tables ... still means those 3 servers want to work for tips. That negates your parent post saying the higher # of staff is the barrier to eliminating tipping.

Instead, the barrier to end tipping in the USA is the inertia of the ingrained culture where servers expect tips and patrons keep paying them.

There are several high-profile restaurants in New York City, etc that tried to eliminate tipping by raising prices and they eventually reverted back to traditional tips.

>Hopefully it is clear how 5 servers dedicated to 4 tables each and backed up by runners can do a lot more upselling than 2-3 staff doing team service.

It isn't clear because those same lowered server count of 2-3 can still ask the same upselling questions... "Do you want desert?" Asking that question isn't mathematically constrained by the # of servers. Instead, it's constrained by the # of tables.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#328

Post by JohnFen »

yuye wrote: post #318
JohnFen wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I do as well. Then I don't return to that restaurant on the basis of shenanigans.

It's pretty common where I live in Asia, and they almost always write it on their menu, too. I don't really see it as shenanigans as long as it's communicated in advance. We don't have a tipping culture, though.

They disclose it in the US as well. It's shenanigans to me because it's sneaky. Rather than being honest an increasing the price of the food, they're using a "service fee" separately to try to trick you into thinking the restaurant is less expensive than it is. I genuinely find it offensive, for pretty much the same reason that I find tipping culture offensive.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#329

Post by dofm »

kergonath wrote: post #221
dofm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Europe you'll wait 20 minutes to get the attention of a waiter for salt or ketchup until your food is cold. You could ask for the salt or ketchup when the meal arrives. Also Europeans are not, I think, accustomed to asking for salt, or ketchup, on already seasoned food. So your request is actually unusual.

> Also Europeans are not, I think, accustomed to asking for salt, or ketchup, on already seasoned food. I would expect to find salt, pepper and mustard on the table in a decent restaurant, in my corner of Europe. Not ketchup, though, except in a cheap burger place.

You would in the UK but we are a condiments culture. Quite normal to find two kinds of tomato relish, two kinds of mustard, and if the café is satanic, salad cream or piccalilli. But I don’t think I would dream of asking for salt or pepper or ketchup if they were not already on the table.

Re: Why some US restaurants are banning tips

#330

Post by account42 »

kubb wrote: post #113
xyzelement wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just yesterday there was a story on HN about Spain's dying villages and a commenter who I assumed was Spanish attributed theow beth rate to income inequality. Which is it - low gini for talking to a waiter, high gini for starting a fam?

You can’t hold two separate people accountable for their contradictory statements.

You can however point out conflicting information.
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