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Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

larsfaye.com

531–540 of 575 posts

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#531
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your right to push back on that...

> Your right to push back on that... Human test passed. AIs make giant flashy mistakes. They don't fuck up basic grammar.

> They don't fuck up basic grammar.

Sometimes they do. From Gemini 3, some AppleScript:

  if something then
    if something then
      if something then
        stuff
      end if
    end if
  
Each time I asked Gemini 3 to fix the syntax error, it acknowledged it had screwed up the basic syntax, and then emitted a new version of the code. With another XML closing tag somewhere. Then it was embarrassed, apologetic, etc. to see it had made the same mistake repeatedly. Eventually it output several attempts per turn as it kept checking its own work in-turn, seeing that it had made the same kind of mistake and tried again, this time definitely fixing it, proudly and confidently presenting me with the correct, final, definitive version. With another 'end if' or 'end tell' replaced by an XML closing tag that it couldn't see until the next turn.

After about 10 turns the problem went away.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before, if I would start working / thinking on a problem and discover it was harder than anticipated, that often was a signal that the feature may not be worth it. Because implementing it doesn't fit the current model of how things work or similar. Then it was back to the drawing table and find a better way of solving the underlying issue. But an LLM just happily chugs along and does it, no one feels the friction, wh…

That's why you first ask the LLM: "tell me how you would do this, and ask me any clarifications and questions you may have, and share any other thoughts you may have. Don't implement yet." The LLM will look through the codebase, think, and tell you what it would do and if there's any design decisions you would have to make, as well as other things you probably need to be aware of. Then you go through the LLM's output…

Sure, but I'm only able to do that because I'm intimately aware of everything in the code base. The more I do this where the LLM ends up writing the code (even based on my decisions), the less good critique I'll be able to give in the future.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a product guy on the team who was in a deeply not technical role before AI who is trying to do the “hey Claude, read this Jira ticket, implement” thing. It doesn’t work for the vast majority of tickets he attempts because he doesn’t have the necessary understanding to even start thinking about if the solution that the autocomplete generates is even remotely workable. And that’s with fancy dev loops and whatno…

> It doesn’t work for the vast majority of tickets he attempts because he doesn’t have the necessary understanding to even start thinking about if the solution that the autocomplete generates is even remotely workable. And that’s with fancy dev loops and whatnot. Remove the dev from the equation. Suppose you need to produce circumstances for the slop machine to succeed on its own (imagine a loop). What is missing? A…

When does the intense planning just become programming in a natural language though? And at that point, it just becomes less accurate coding. I feel like this is the biggest trade off when it comes to agentic coding. You are practically trading accuracy and control for speed and efficiency. And if you want the same accuracy and control when using agents for coding, you as a validator become the bottleneck, removing in most instances all of the speed and efficiency gains. It all comes down to this, what matters the most: speed, or accuracy and control. Todays capitalism typically favours short-term thinking, speed and efficiency, which is bad news for everyone. Software developers will be forced to have less control and produce less accurate code, because the validation step is not permitted, due to it being the bottleneck.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#535
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coding My claim is just that LLMs are basically fine now with the "coding" part. Not so much with development, definitely not with engineering.

Outside of the most niche domains like frontier AI development, are there software engineering questions that Sol 5.6/Fable 5 can't answer better than the median software engineer if explicitly asked? It strikes me that models already have superhuman software architecture capabilities, they are simply underelicited. Furthermore the AI companies are spending gobs of money and compute to address this—harness developmen…

> Outside of the most niche domains like frontier AI development, are there software engineering questions that Sol 5.6/Fable 5 can't answer better than the median software engineer if explicitly asked?

"Median" is kinda hard to judge given how rapidly the number of software engineers has been growing, how imprecise our within-industry skill assessments are, and also how fast everything within software was shifting even before agentic coding. Two examples: (1) an old estimate I heard was that 50% of the skills we would put on our CVs would be obsolete every few years, but we'd never know which ones; (2) The reason for the creation of FizzBuzz as an interview question (far too many people are *that* bad).

For the LLMs themselves: the METR time horizons estimates are based on an expert developer's wall-clock times, and the graph on their website only goes as far as Mythos preview which is kinda about this level. Mythos preview shows only 80% success at tasks that would take a human 3h6m on average (95% confidence interval 1h37m-6h39m), which is evidence that yes, there is plenty that the models can't do. I naturally break down larger tasks to smaller ones, the agentic coding models I've used also attempt to do this, but seem to be worse at it than I am.

> It strikes me that models already have superhuman software architecture capabilities, they are simply underelicited.

While they can do better when elicited correctly (and the same is true for humans), they are too "lazy" by themselves to attempt self-elicitation.

The second part, just like the first, is also true for humans; but LLMs are so much cheaper than humans that this is a disappointment for the LLM to stop early and say "[Thought for 35m 24s] Here's your MVP, I've not done subtasks 35 onwards", even though it's an advantage for the humans to say "[Invoice for a 2 week sprint with a team of 5 developers and their manager for a total cost of $23,000] Here's your MVP, we can discuss which of subtasks 35 onwards you want in the next sprint".

I'm not sure where I'd rate LLMs on a strict 0-10 scale from "hack" to "formal methods followed by end-to-end testing", but the examples given by the research companies themselves suggest that even they are only at the "this is starting to get interesting" level for both architecture and their own idea of what "I have now completed this to a good quality" looks like, not at the "actually good" level for complete big projects.

> Furthermore the AI companies are spending gobs of money and compute to address this—harness development, orchestration/agent coordination, computer use are all designed to lower the skill level required to get the best results out of a given model.

The observation is that money and compute spent are not strongly correlated with the general quality of the models. If the correlation was strong then Meta would be near the top, while the multitude of open-weight Chinese models that keep popping to the top of leaderboards every couple of months would be jokes. Grok would have been better from the start and not suddenly gotten good around when they bought up the much smaller and lower-budget Cursor.

https://llm-stats.com/models/muse-spark-1.1

https://llm-stats.com/models/gpt-5.6-sol

https://llm-stats.com/models/kimi-k3

> Soon the models themselves will be more persistent, more observant, and more skilled than any of us at driving models to obtain the "right" solution in a given SWE context.

My experience has been that predictions of "soon" fare about as poorly as predictions of "never" in the context of AI. Regarding the failures of "soon" predictions, I do not know the degree to which this is company leadership BSing how good their stuff is, vs. Goodhart's law where they're fooled by the difference between their metrics and reality.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#536
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a world where teachers on average make more than software engineers. If we figure that out, everything else will be fine in the long run.

Here in germany I would say that the median salary for teachers is quite close to a software developer's one. I know Teachers that earn more/ have more benefits with less work years experience than me. (Not complaining tho, I just hope they put that into good use)

Here some teachers live in their cars because the salary is not enough to even rent a room a reasonable commute from the school.

Not surprised Germany values education a bit higher than us.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#537
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also see no evidence that AI programming is a difficult skill that cannot be learned by any intelligent person in much shorter amounts of time than previous professional skills required. I do not think anyone could do the job I do with AI without my decades of experience, is my point. For now.

I’m assuming you’re a software engineer. The AI programming meta that keeps evolving (last month it was loops) seems like a relatively trivial skill to adopt compared to learning what it’s like to do high quality work and to participate in a team, and these kinds of things. If the AI stops improving then everyone will master the AI skill set that everyone else is using, and people will acquire maturity and experience…

A security engineer. No shortage of novel risks to fight.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#538
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it: "How do you know the solution is good?" Because I can still reason and dig into things and ask questions and have the domain explained to me out of curiosity, the same way I could build anything that was originally out of my depth. But what I've noticed is that the need for any corrective power has gone or is going to nil and I'm mainly doing directional work. And even then, I can constantly have sota models "…

You got it. You may well be right, but from my standpoint it's hard to see how you'd know if you weren't. Yeah, the models fill in vagueness with detail sourced from "what's likely and helpful". (In one of my particular domains, that's "use SHAP values for everything everywhere".) Yeah, that detail's increasingly unlikely to be "wrong" in a way that you could explicitly argue. Is it what an expert would come up with?…

Yeah, I feel you.

A lot of my nonchalance here is from dealing with an immense sense of loss for the end of my identity-level skillset/profession, then acceptance, then deciding to push the envelope on AI-generated software to see what I can pull off since the start of this year.

Focusing on creating things that I want has been an antidote to the melange/uncertainty for the future.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#539
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before, if I would start working / thinking on a problem and discover it was harder than anticipated, that often was a signal that the feature may not be worth it. Because implementing it doesn't fit the current model of how things work or similar. Then it was back to the drawing table and find a better way of solving the underlying issue. But an LLM just happily chugs along and does it, no one feels the friction, wh…

I first brought this up late last year – that there used to exist a kind of selection pressure against both developers and against features which would prevent certain functionality from ever being shipped, specifically: - Functionality which exceed the technical ability or knowledge of the developer which built it; and - Functionality which would require an excessive number of changes that time/cost became a constra…

> I suppose there are two ways to look at this – some would argue that engineers don't need to understand what they're building in detail any more so none of this matters.

Is there ANY field where good engineers don't understand the basics? Can an electrical engineer do any work without understanding Volts and Amperes?

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That sounds great until you realize that "hey Claude, read this Jira ticket and implement the feature in this code base" isn't really worth $200K/year. When you factor in overhead and benefits, many companies were regularly paying that much for someone (many someones) to "read this Jira ticket and implement the feature". We are currently in the "centaur" phase where a human-AI combination produces the best output,…

We've gone through this with chess, and the days when a human can do anything to help AI there are long past; the human can only drag it down. It seems to me to be a form of the bitter lesson. I expect this will happen in every field where we don't add guardrails to require humans in the network. I have a hard time seeing regulation happening around this in the US but vanity may also serve, will CEOs be satisfied rul…

> We've gone through this with chess

Please never compare perfect information games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information) with actual reality, which is probably many orders of magnitude more complex.

Kind of similar story with math (pure) and other sciences (impure): https://xkcd.com/435/

OpenAI & co keep presenting their achievements at maths competitions as their path to AGI/ASI/singularity. But if you look at that XKCD graph, the way the joke reads is in terms of arrogance (scientists working on purer fields are more arrogant), but the actual science complexity work the exactly the other way around. Impure sciences are orders of magnitude more complex.

Implementing a sorting function = coding (relatively pure).

Creating an entire commercial software product/service with high performance and other professional-level characteristics = software engineering (wildly impure; after 60+ years we can't even agree on the best programming language to use).

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