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Oceans hit highest temperature on record

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Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#301

Post by tzs »

ch4s3 wrote: post #55
cdrnsf wrote: post #7

Meanwhile governments are electing to either do nothing or actively make the problem worse (particularly in the case of the US — expanding fossil fuel extraction, pushing data center build out and attacking renewables like wind).

Data centers use no more than 1.5% of electricity globally[1], and a long LLM query uses only a little more than 5 minutes of general laptop use ~3x the energy of running an LED light for 5 minutes. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/how-much-energy-do-data-centers-a...

Laptop use and LED light use (and most other uses of electricity) are not increasing so rapidly that they can not be accommodated by the normal expansion in electric system capacity that has been part of long term planning for quite a while.

Instead much of it is being handled by bringing new fossil power plants on line that would not have been built if not for all the new data centers.

The other things that are causing significant increases in electricity use, like more people getting heat pumps and EVs, are all very spread out and so are much less likely to force new fossil fuel power plants.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#302

Post by estearum »

YZF wrote: post #287
Devasta wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about we give the US credit for this? If it weren't for the huge efforts put into it by china to make solar and batteries so cheap and capable we wouldn't be nearly as far along in the solar transition as we are. Solar is growing in spite of US policy, not because of it.

I was poking people a little with that statement. Can't help myself. But really, there is growth under the policies, so saying "despite" doesn't work. You could try to argue that the policy makers tried to kill solar but achieved the opposite result. But at the end of the day the current policy environment led to a positive result. Correlation isn't causation but if I was writing a policy and I wanted to guarantee th…

A car on which you slam on the accelerator and the brakes, and which comes to a stop, is in fact stopping despite your pressing on the accelerator.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#303

Post by estearum »

YZF wrote: post #232
kalenx wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. Are you making the argument that extracting fossil fuel here is better than extracting it elsewhere? Or, perhaps more to the point, you do see that the issue is the use of fossil fuels and that extracting _more_ is just contributing to it? About the (unrelated) boycott question, I would invite you to consider the reasons motivating people to boycott Tesla. If think everyone do that to "hurt" or "p…

Yes. I am making the argument that if we extract a barrel of oil in Canada that is all in all better than in Russia or Saudi. We have more environmental standards and we put that money towards better things. Canada was able to give me a rebate on my EV purchase. Where do you think that money comes from? I drive a Tesla because at the time it was (and maybe still is) the best EV. I benefit from the network of supercha…

Silly argument. You obviously want to be the very last nation on the planet to run out of fossil fuels.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#304

Post by pfisch »

consumer451 wrote: post #288
pfisch wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The eu is stupid for not engaging in active climate engineering right now. They are the most at risk and should take decisive action before they end up living in a glacier. All the downvotes are just showing why no action is being taken even though right now we are literally terraforming the planet with no plan, and it is going to stop the transatlantic currents that keep Europe from becoming arctic. But sure, just d…

I agree with you. We are actually at huge risk. "Western Civilization" rose out of our stable European climate and that is over now. However, we need a global consensus for geoengineering. That's just how that works... the Jet Stream. Meanwhile one country believes that global warming is a benefit, aka Russia. They currently appear to have control of the West.. so what in the actual f? For a far more dire diatribe: h…

>However, we need a global consensus for geoengineering.

Why? Does china or the us need a consensus before taking existential risks like making ai? Or detonating a nuke that had a tiny chance of setting the atmosphere on fire? Or attacking random countries with almost no rationale or plan?

This kind of thinking is why the EU is screwed. No other major power cares that much because they aren't at the same level of risk as the eu.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#305

Post by thelastgallon »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #63
ang_cire wrote: post #9

As someone who works in risk management, I think I have a hard time understanding how anyone can be so blase about climate change. Like, it truly takes a level of willful ignorance to have something so dire happening, and just choosing to either ignore it, or ignore the evidence for it. Like, even if you think the science isn't that accurate, the impacts , the massive potential harms, should outweigh the choice to ju…

>This is literally going to kill millions. You could be right, but I think the more likely outcome is a 'Ministry for the Future' scenario where India or China just decide to unilaterally implement geoengineering and dare the rest of the world to stop them.

Indias per capita income is ~$2700.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#306

Post by YZF »

kalenx wrote: post #292
YZF wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I am making the argument that if we extract a barrel of oil in Canada that is all in all better than in Russia or Saudi. We have more environmental standards and we put that money towards better things. Canada was able to give me a rebate on my EV purchase. Where do you think that money comes from? I drive a Tesla because at the time it was (and maybe still is) the best EV. I benefit from the network of supercha…

Fair enough. I'll expand. > The political criticism in the US (and in Canada where I'm from) against fossil fuel extraction makes no sense. If you _must_ extract fossil fuel, you can arguably say that it's better to do it somewhere with higher environmental standards (of course, here I'm disregarding people disdain to see wilderness areas they know and have an emotional attachment with transformed into oil fields). B…

I try to be pragmatic and not religious/ideology driven and I try to take in the complete picture. I think we could all use more of that. A lot of my climate thinking is influenced by someone I know who is also very pragmatic and knows a lot more about this. I am more or less echoing some of those thoughts because I think they're important and I agree with them.

We are not all going to "just stop" using fossil fuels. That is not a realistic goal. If it was possible then I'd entertain it. Being religious about this doesn't help make progress because it alienates people. I am all for pragmatic measures that reduce fossil fuel usage globally. Tanking Canada's economy to make zero or negative global impact is how I evaluate some of the proposed aggressive policies. What is happening is that we are funding Russia's war on Ukraine indirectly due to our lack of ability to replace that supply in Europe. That to me feels like obviously bad policy.

I made changes in my life to reduce fossil fuel usage and am considering more. I also try and influence others where I can to make similar changes. I am not optimizing for $'s here, I can afford to spend more and use less fossil fuels. This isn't really to boast or anything, just to say that this approach works for me and can work for others.

My wife boycotts Nestle for political considerations. I sort of get it but also not get it. That's not to say I would never consider something like that but I also am not a believer in the efficiency of that driving change and I don't have time to research everything in enough depth to come to a conclusion about everything I buy. Not buying Tesla for politics X is a very one dimensional decision. I don't understand how to make that decision and so I don't bother.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#307

Post by estearum »

imperio59 wrote: post #265
cdrnsf wrote: post #7

Meanwhile governments are electing to either do nothing or actively make the problem worse (particularly in the case of the US — expanding fossil fuel extraction, pushing data center build out and attacking renewables like wind).

China is the biggest problem. US Carbon emissions are going down, China's are exploding.

Huh? That's not true.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-co2-emissions-ha...

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#308

Post by ColdStream »

Isaackoz wrote: post #41
triska wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "a few degrees, what difference does that make?" Maybe this helps: Think about when we have a fever of "a few degrees", say, instead of 37 degree Celsius, we have 40. It shows that also a few degrees can make a huge difference.

Think even bigger. 1 degrees inside your house? Not noticeable at all. But on a planet-wide scale? A 1 degree difference requires a LOT of energy. It's like boiling a cup of water vs an Olympic sized swimming pool. The latter is going to take a lot more energy than the former.

Funnily enough the water temperature is why many are so focused on the arctic sea ice. It is acting as a buffer that is keeping large parts of the ocean cooler beyond both reflecting sun light and also actively melting and releasing cool water into the ocean.

But as it is shrinking rapidly, there is an eye being kept to see when we hit a "Blue Ocean Event". That is coverage less that 1 million sq KM as that is effectively gone as far as functionality goes. Only 15 years ago this was thought to be something that might happen in the 22nd century, it looks like we might see this in the next decade.

You can test the impact of this at home. Get a glass of water and put some ice in it with a thermometer. Once down to temperature, the water won't change much as the ice will melt to keep the temperature stable. But as soon as it is all gone, the temperature will start to rise rapidly. This is because of Latent heat fusion. The amount of energy it takes to change ice to water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

The amount of energy it takes to break the bonds of ice at 0c to into water at 0c, is the same about of energy need to take that 0c water up to 71c. When the arctic is gone, we lose a HUGE buffer on global temperatures.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#309

Post by estearum »

llm_nerd wrote: post #289
foota wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling China a country that "bred like rabbits" over the past few decades is first of all offensive and second of all stupid for a country that has one of the biggest problems with their coming population pyramid and limited couples to a single child for most of the last 40 years.

Bizarre comment. I think the best is when you declare it "stupid" because China got its population explosion under control...at 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE . And the problem is that today everyone always waves away China bringing enormous greenhouse gas burning capacity online by saying "oh well... per capita ...", and it's incredibly weird. If China and India are going to "make up" for their historic per capita greenhouse ga…

Why does it matter how many people exist within a specific arbitrary line on a map?

If China or India split into 5 different political systems each, suddenly the calculus changes?

Talk about foolish.

Re: Oceans hit highest temperature on record

#310

Post by noosphr »

vkou wrote: post #294
noosphr wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had enough power to close down all the nuclear power plants in Germany.

And despite that, this is what Germany achieved in the past 35 years. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/GHG%20em... Over a 60% reduction in emissions from the electrical sector. --- Compare that to the US, where environmentalists haven't been allowed anywhere near any influence in the federal government... And you'll very quickly see that they are just a convenient boogieman, and not the actual prob…

And yet it produces 8 times the co2 per mwh that France does: https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/greenhouse-...
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