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One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

cnn.com

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Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#81

Post by raincole »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #29

There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sourc…

> What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed

There are some nuances about this. We know that there are multiple developed cities (and likely monarchies, given there are palace-like ruins) around or before Xia era. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Xia Dynasty. But it doesn't meant that there were only small tribes and suddenly Shang came out of nowhere.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#83

Post by refactor_master »

alsetmusic wrote: post #72

> Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities. > “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have…

Historical revisionism, CCP :sakura: :starry_eyed:

Historical revisionism, random people :angry: :barf:

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#84

Post by Drupon »

KwisatzHaderack wrote: post #53

I think the bigger point here is that even the CCP, with it’s heavy-handed totalitarian controls on the Chinese web, isn’t able to entirely filter out misinformation.

"This thing challenges my preexisting biases about the CCP. The only conclusion must be that it is truly exceptional, never that I can eating from the pig trough of my country's propaganda."

Behold, the most educated and intellectually curious American, folks.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#85

Post by YackerLose »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #29

There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sourc…

>So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.

There are people who believe that Trump won in 2020, that vaccines cause autism, and that the Holocaust is a hoax. You cannot reason people out of an idea they didn't use reason to arrive at.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#86

Post by ecshafer »

NotThatFast wrote: post #76
guyzero wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the early 2000's, well before most social media sites existed, I had a coworker who shared with me a number of questionable theories, one of which was basically this. He also believed very passionately that plate tectonics was wrong. Unfortunately social media didn't invent brain worms.

Was he reading Neal Adams? I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk! I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong. Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard. Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they jus…

Many of the more esoteric conspiracy theories are hard to debunk. Lets take the earth if round, prove it. You can bring up many cases, sails disappearing behind the horizon, goemetry, etc. but actually doing these measurements and calculations cold is pretty hard. And whenever you bring up a fact, they will dismiss it out of hand. Tectonic plates, I believe they exist, I have seen the evidence in books. But I doubt I could prove it, I've never really studied geology or anything like that. And if I were to debate someone who believes they weren't real, I would probably lose as they would bring up obscure papers, incidents, etc. which I wouldn't be able to refute well.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#87

Post by galleywest200 »

culi wrote: post #23
contingencies wrote: post #16

Let's not get started on corners of the American internet... ask your favourite AI about "list of historical denial theories with US subscribers, including religious". No doubt longer and more amusing!

birds aren't real, the earth is flat, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, apollo 11 landed in hollywood, and zuckerberg is a lizard

“Birds aren’t real” is fully and completely a meme for goofs.

Zuck I think is also just for goofs but the others yes indeed have true believers.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#88

Post by throwawaythekey »

YackerLose wrote: post #85
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #29

There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sourc…

>So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously. There are people who believe that Trump won in 2020, that vaccines cause autism, and that the Holocaust is a hoax. You cannot reason people out of an idea they didn't use reason to arrive at.

The majority of people don't reason themselves into anything, whether it's the mainstream view or the conspiracy.

There's just a substantial bias where people assume all 'new knowledge' is wrong. Probably correct most the time, but still often wrong.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#89

Post by colechristensen »

ecshafer wrote: post #86
NotThatFast wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was he reading Neal Adams? I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk! I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong. Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard. Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they jus…

Many of the more esoteric conspiracy theories are hard to debunk. Lets take the earth if round, prove it. You can bring up many cases, sails disappearing behind the horizon, goemetry, etc. but actually doing these measurements and calculations cold is pretty hard. And whenever you bring up a fact, they will dismiss it out of hand. Tectonic plates, I believe they exist, I have seen the evidence in books. But I doubt I…

You don't particularly need calculations, just have friends around the world or even a couple hundred miles away, get on a video call to prove the world is round. Whatever your pet theory of how the sun moves across the "flat" earth can be contradicted with a couple of facetime calls.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#90

Post by jonhohle »

ecshafer wrote: post #86
NotThatFast wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was he reading Neal Adams? I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk! I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong. Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard. Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they jus…

Many of the more esoteric conspiracy theories are hard to debunk. Lets take the earth if round, prove it. You can bring up many cases, sails disappearing behind the horizon, goemetry, etc. but actually doing these measurements and calculations cold is pretty hard. And whenever you bring up a fact, they will dismiss it out of hand. Tectonic plates, I believe they exist, I have seen the evidence in books. But I doubt I…

I was recently in Hawaii on Kauai. I wondered if I could see any of the other Hawaiian islands (besides the small local ones). Can you see Oahu from Kauai (70 miles away)? Rarely, and only if you get to a high enough elevation and even then you can only see the highest peaks. On the other hand, Maui is easily visible from Hawaii from sea level. Simple, practice, repeatable.

Likewise, flying in a plane for any distance and seeing the course is identical to if you pulled a string tight against a globe (give or take). I suppose pilots could choose to fly in an arch to keep the secret, but eventually some capitalist has got to spill the beans to cut costs, right?

Also: the southern hemisphere.

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