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Anger, Anxiety and Agency

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Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#91

Post by negrewal »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #5

> Even if you don’t find what’s happening right now exciting, you can at least find it interesting I can't get myself to stop finding it terrifying When I think about my future I am scared . Not uncertain. Not merely anxious. Definitely not excited. I'm quite frightened. In fairness, I think I'm a bit of an outlier. I already felt my place in society was fairly tenuous. I struggle to make friends. I don't feel I fit…

Your comment really resonated with me. I grew up middle class, but both my parents grew up poor, and they taught me to be afraid of poverty. Many people in this forum are here because they love computers - I like computers, but what I liked more than computers was the opportunity to live comfortably and provide for myself and my family. The possibility of AI destroying that opportunity has me second guessing nearly every major life decision I’ve made since the age of 17.

I don’t really think that AI will destroy the field of software development, but there’s a constant sense of urgency underlying every working hour where I have to second guess whether I’m using the tools right and how much longer they’re even going to need a human in the loop (my gut says forever, but I’ve been wrong before …)

If I could go back in time, I would pick a different career. I’ve learned that I value consistency and predictability in my life, and tech is clearly not where you’re going to find that. If this was just a hobby, AI would be a godsend. But I always saw software development as my ticket to a decent life, and I’m left guessing everyday whether that ticket is still valid.

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#92

Post by cauch »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #74
dogleash wrote: post #57

There's something that really rubs me the wrong way when people use the language of healthy emotional regulation to spread unearned and unjustified placation. It reminds me of (for the pedants out there, I'm not saying it's equivalent to) the consume product meme. "Don't ask questions, just complete assignment and then get excited for next industry trend." >I don’t know what the future of this industry will look like…

> Sounds pleasant and vaguely inspirational. Then you read it again and notice guy thinks I don't always have the RIGHT to DECIDE to RESIST. Author here: maybe I wasn't too clear about this, but I have seen people direct their anger about about what AI does to their jobs at people who themselves are not in a situation to do anything about it (eg: line managers or leaderships in businesses who are trying to roll out A…

I think it's what is missing in the article. Anger incorrectly directed is a bad thing. But the article implies that there is no correct direction to the anger, which makes the article sounds as naive and misdirected as people who get angry at the wrong persons.

I would even say that being angry at the wrong person is as bad as not being angry at the right person.

Being angry is a societal tool to put limits on what can or cannot be done. If there is no anger when people crosses the line, then there is no real signal for them to not cross the line. And, no, "a peaceful rational argument" is not an alternative. This is not at all the same signal, this is a signal that is sent way earlier before that specific line and it is exactly how the overton window shifts.

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#93

Post by asdfman123 »

tptacek wrote: post #18

The record scratch for me here was the idea that people can choose to be unsure instead of angry. People hate being unsure. Neurochemistry prefers anger to uncertainty. People get angry about being unsure. We feel anger in large part as our brain's natural salve for the discomfort of uncertainty. The suggestion he's making sort of defines away human nature. (There's a lot of practical benefit to be gained from unders…

It's just not true that "neurochemistry prefers" one state over the other. Neurochemistry rewards you based on how you've trained yourself.

We used to gain status by being good hunters and warriors, and now we're trying to get it through clever hacker news comments. Believe me, "human nature" is very flexible.

People are just uncomfortable with uncertainty when they're not used to it. I think most of us have trained ourselves out of a lot of intense emotions in favor of seeing the big picture. I could give a hundred examples of this.

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#94

Post by tehnub »

Neither this post nor the Sean Goedecke one gives an example of what being angry at work looks like. Anger is a pretty broad emotion. Without examples to base the discussion, it all seems kind of meaningless to me. I see a lot of frustration at work. At what point does it become anger?

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#95

Post by asdfman123 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #32

I was taught that anger isn't an emotion. It's a reaction -a defensive surge of adrenaline, binary thinking, and motivation to fight. It can feel empowering and energizing. We aren't just sitting here. We're gonna do something . The emotion is fear. Anger is just a reaction to fear. Basically, if we are angry, we are also scared; whether or not we want to admit it. It's a long topic, and one I know well (I agree with…

Actually, I find it's helpful to privately admit that you do negative things because they DO have some positive side effects. Everything is a tradeoff.

Maybe anger helps draw attention to you. Maybe it garners some form of sympathy. Maybe people get out of your way when you're angry, giving you a certain kind of power.

The reason why you want to stop being angry is because you want to accomplish things without all the negative side effects too.

Being very honest about what you're getting out of something can give you the bigger picture on why you rely on it, so you can more effectively find solutions.

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#96

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

janpeuker wrote: post #83
tptacek wrote: post #18

The record scratch for me here was the idea that people can choose to be unsure instead of angry. People hate being unsure. Neurochemistry prefers anger to uncertainty. People get angry about being unsure. We feel anger in large part as our brain's natural salve for the discomfort of uncertainty. The suggestion he's making sort of defines away human nature. (There's a lot of practical benefit to be gained from unders…

Big +1. Uncertainty is where we learn, and where non-zero-sum games are, but most western AI labs right now operate firmly in zero-sum game territory.

In a zero sum game, resources are neither created or destroyed, just fought over by competing parties or converted losslessly from one type into another. So far, this industry is negative sum by a long shot.

Maybe one day AI will make a contribution that's so awesome that we'll look back at all of the harm it's causing and say that it was worth it, but that day... zero sum day... seems distant indeed.

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#97

Post by cauch »

mlsu wrote: post #88

This article falls flat for me. Maybe because I'm angry? >Anxiety as an emotion does not require someone to blame. I know this isn't the "hacker mindset" or whatever. But my anger is well placed and justified. It is pointed at a very specific set of people who are actively doing everything in their power to turn the world into a surveillance spam slop hellscape while massively enriching themselves and destroying the…

On my side, and to build on top of what you've said here, I think the article misses the point of the fact that anger is a useful and healthy societal tool.

The naive disney approach to anger is "you should not be angry, it is baaaad". But anger is an important signal to put limits on what is not acceptable to do in society. If my neighbour throw their garbage over the fence in my garden, me being angry at them is the uncomfortable situation they will be faced with and that will teach them it is not acceptable. Alternatives don't work: any other response will signal that what they've done is in fact "not that bad afterall, otherwise people would have been angry".

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#98

Post by cindyllm »

cauch wrote: post #97
mlsu wrote: post #88

This article falls flat for me. Maybe because I'm angry? >Anxiety as an emotion does not require someone to blame. I know this isn't the "hacker mindset" or whatever. But my anger is well placed and justified. It is pointed at a very specific set of people who are actively doing everything in their power to turn the world into a surveillance spam slop hellscape while massively enriching themselves and destroying the…

On my side, and to build on top of what you've said here, I think the article misses the point of the fact that anger is a useful and healthy societal tool. The naive disney approach to anger is "you should not be angry, it is baaaad". But anger is an important signal to put limits on what is not acceptable to do in society. If my neighbour throw their garbage over the fence in my garden, me being angry at them is th…

[dead]

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#99

Post by xlayn »

This is the second post in the vibe of "you should not get angry at work, being angry is bad, and you want to be a professional bla bla bla", and what I see is some effort to start putting the blame into the worker of working conditions that make you angry.

It's like the petro-campaign of "drive as much as you want, burn fuel non stop but if you recycle then everything is good...." then you put paper in one bin, and "the other garbage" in the other... two different trucks pick it and ends up in the same landfill (google "recycle end up same landfill apple tag" and pick one)... and by the way, the whole recycle thing was a diversion to keep your focus away from the actual issue... google "recycle was a scam by petro" and pick your poison

like when you start reading... we should start getting used to earth warming... how to tolerate more heat... and yes just google

Re: Anger, Anxiety and Agency

#100

Post by GMoromisato »

Anger is useless in this situation. Even if you can identify someone to blame (sama? Elon Musk?) what's your anger going to do to them? How is that going to help you? Feeling angry is drinking poison to hurt the other guy.

Uncertainty is much more useful. Uncertainty helps us prepare. We don't know what's going to happen, so we start to plan: If X happens we do Y; meanwhile we'll stock up on Z, just in case we need it.

The problem with anger is that it feels good. It's easy--you don't have to do anything--but it feels like you're doing something. You can convince yourself that being angry is enough. Once people realize how angry you are, the problems will cease. And if they don't, well, you already know what to do: get angrier. No thinking required.

Anger is your genes' way of psyching you up to throw a punch. If someone steals your food, or hurts your mate or your children, you get angry and fight back. I get that. But you can't punch AI.

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