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One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

cnn.com

21–30 of 190 posts

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#21
post #11

Its a Chinese equivalent of the phantom time theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_conspiracy_theory Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.

Not to be confused with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_chronology_(Fomenko) which I thought was the same as this but actually compresses a whole lot more time into less than 1000 years and does word magic to imply that King Solomon = Suleiman the Magnificent.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#22

"Claiming that the 300-year dynasty was actually a myth is akin to saying the American Civil War never happened" Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well? Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?

[deleted]

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#23

Let's not get started on corners of the American internet... ask your favourite AI about "list of historical denial theories with US subscribers, including religious". No doubt longer and more amusing!

birds aren't real, the earth is flat, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, apollo 11 landed in hollywood, and zuckerberg is a lizard

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#25

"Claiming that the 300-year dynasty was actually a myth is akin to saying the American Civil War never happened" Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well? Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?

My daughter is a tx high school student and the books don’t mention slavery in context of the civil war. It’s framed as only a states rights issue, in which Texas is the honorable fighter of freedoms.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#26
“Many parents say that, thanks to the hoax, their children now feel confused about historical facts, the Nanjing Daily reported”

Great, lets make this useful … this specific nonsense will settle down and be proven to be a hoax and/or misinformation. An important component of parenting today is to raise kids who take claims presented on the internet with a large grain of salt. Rather than contrived examples in critical thinking exercises they might get in class or a textbook, parents now have a perfect, real example here to show their kids that online nonsense can look authoritative and be very widely believed, and yet still be false. Shields up. Less time online for kids. And don’t outsource your critical thinking to the online majority or to AI!

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#27

The same sort of arguments are playing out in the US, albeit on a shorter timescale. I couldn't say when it started, but it's extremely depressing that the history section in most general bookstores is just a locus for narrative warfare rather than scholarship. Of course, this phenomenon is by no means unique to these two countries. I know a Japanese author who has a small but dedicated following for his argument tha…

I get what you mean that pop hist. books aren't academic, but "narrative warfare" describes a huge proportion of historical scholarship. Whether or not you agree with it, that's the whole point of Metahistory and the linguistic turn.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#28
post #11

Its a Chinese equivalent of the phantom time theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_conspiracy_theory Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.

The version I've had argued to me didn't change any chronology, they just insisted that the Song dynasty started earlier so the Tang shouldn't be counted.

The context was weird, the person pushing it was very passionate about the subject, and since I certainly don't know all that much about Chinese history from the period, I just smiled and nodded. Apparently this is a bigger thing?

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#29
There are primary sources. There are archeological sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qianling_Mausoleum

There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang

And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sources. Among others, Japanese histories detail the journeys of emissaries to the Tang Court: https://web.archive.org/web/20260315181529/https://japansoci...

So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.

But I'll give it credit for hijacking a genuinely interesting scholarly premise: What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed. It is of rather mythic proportions; later Chinese would speak of Xia the way Romans would speak of Troy. And there is very little evidence to support its existence. The Shang Dynasty is also supported by rather scant evidence -- and is also mythic, though obviously less so than the Xia.

Worth noting that both the Xia and Shang are exceedingly ancient -- roughly 2000 BC to 1000 BC between them -- unlike the Tang, which fell around 900 AD and is thus middle-of-the-pack by Chinese dynastic standards.

Re: One corner of China’s internet is insisting that the Tang Dynasty never existed

#30

If Tang Dynasties are real, why haven't I seen one?

They made orange drink powder for the Apollo Missions. I KID YOU NOT!

Oh so you’re saying that’s what happened to the Tang dynasty and this is just a huge coverup.
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