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Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

larsfaye.com

181–190 of 574 posts

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#181

Most computer science programs don't teach "coding" though. There is pretty heavy emphasis on datastructures, algorithms, and system design. I don't think AI atrophies those skills / knowledge as much as the coding language and I think in many cases actually improves them, especially if you are reading the code that is produced and at least understanding the flow of it. I agree that AI reliance is hurting engineer's…

> Most computer science programs don't teach "coding" though. There is pretty heavy emphasis on datastructures, algorithms, and system design

Those skills are often taught in an idealized situation like very small projects. In the real world, there are a lot more practices and techniques to develop software in a pragmatic way. Those "engineering practices" are much more useful than the above, unless you're in some specific domains.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#182
I think this is more “gray” than this. I feel like I can rip through ideas more quickly then ever before and as a result get a lot better at designing systems and (for my work) get a lot better at designing data/model experiments.

But I empathize with the author. I think the frustration comes from the fact that other folks in your organization use these tools to “get by” more effectively then before. In the past, a disinterested engineer might ship less under the umbrage of a difficult engineering problem. With the pressure to “ship more” now that there’s AI, the same engineer is using AI to spam PRs to prove they’re working, even the quality of work is low (because quality of thought is low).

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#183
post #71
post #55

So far I think I have learned far more from LLMs than I've lost to them. I forget some syntax, definitely. But I now reach for a much wider range of tools that I have become familiar with because of LLMs. So, partly agree, partly disagree.

Yeah, I have to say some of this deskilling argument sounds like Socrates complaining about the invention of writing ruining people's ability to truly own the text. I really don't mourn my lost assembly skills or my lost C skills. And I'm not missing the details of whatever web framework du jour my Claude is vibing for me on my extremely useful dataviz internal tools; and I have learned how to rein the agents in to n…

Yeah. Thought in Socrates' defense I think the jury is still out on writing, in the scale of human existence it's still very new. Give it a hundred thousand years or so.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#184
> LLMs can detect patterns at a scale that no human ever could, but patterns only get you so far.

This is asserted without evidence, and from a scientific standpoint, unjustified.

First, "detect patterns" makes it sound like a classification task, "is this a picture of a cat". But LLMs transform the input.

For example, an LLM can translate text between two languages while properly handling the names of the people described, no matter what those names are. That shows they are representing the text in a somewhat abstract way, that they can perform operations on that representation, and also convert it to useful output.

And, what I just described is the most general form of information processing algorithm. Science is not aware of any limitations in principle on such systems.

I am not saying LLMs have no limits, but "they only recognize patterns, and that is a true limit" is not a good argument.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#185

I often think back to the early GPT days before agents as maybe the last time I will deeply learn a technical subject. I think that was when I actually learned the most as I had to stay completely in the loop. I had recently started a new job and had to work with k8s for the first time. Using GPT to help me implement new services and help me diagnose and fix issues with kubectl taught me so much. Now with agents I do…

The end result is a total and complete reliance on AI providers. It's not really a secret; that's why I started the article with the direct quote from Altman. They would love to see a world where nobody is able to do any type of development work without an LLM subscription enabled...even though they also admit that these models perform best when they are steered by someone who is highly capable and knowledgeable in the first place. They're powerful, but they are also VERY fallible.

Local AI would thwart this vision (which is why they're desperately also trying to ruin the hardware market at the same time), but the effort it would take to get local models to run as well as these frontier models is an odd thing to pursue just to avoid learning the fundamentals and gaining direct experience.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#186
post #55

So far I think I have learned far more from LLMs than I've lost to them. I forget some syntax, definitely. But I now reach for a much wider range of tools that I have become familiar with because of LLMs. So, partly agree, partly disagree.

May I ask how many years experience you have?

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#187
post #48

100% We're already seeing this at the enterprise level. Companies have dictates from leadership that "if you're writing code manually, you're doing it wrong." Okay, that kind of works for a while. We are indeed producing a shit-ton of code, but the reality is that engineers are pumping out code faster than the humans can understand and (honestly) review it. That sounds great until you realize that "hey Claude, read t…

We have a product guy on the team who was in a deeply not technical role before AI who is trying to do the “hey Claude, read this Jira ticket, implement” thing. It doesn’t work for the vast majority of tickets he attempts because he doesn’t have the necessary understanding to even start thinking about if the solution that the autocomplete generates is even remotely workable. And that’s with fancy dev loops and whatno…

Not everyone has this, but I always felt that a significant percentage of the value I bring is in immediately recognizing what you shouldn’t do.

I have a hard enough time explaining why “yet another bespoke application on some unmanaged azure resources” is a bad idea when they have more reasonable alternatives at hand.

Now these goofs can (very nearly) press a button and do it anyway, with no comprehension of the consequences. It’s high fives and pats on the back, until I’m cleaning up the mess.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#188
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works for a demo, but quickly stagnates. Future models may of course push the limits further, but right now it quickly goes sideways without someone knowledgeable at the helm.

You don't design things with never ending details though. If your developing a feature there's a limited scope to it. If your designing the direction of a large project you're working with higher level concepts. The point is that AI is aware of constraints and can manage a round it. You've got to keep in mind the size of a typical software project and plan. Most people aren't writing a kernel. They're writing some ba…

> The point is that AI is aware of constraints and can manage a round it.

Only if you instruct it with constraints. Otherwise, it's happy to implement whatever workaround it needs. But it still takes a dev to know what those constraints are and why they're needed.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#190
post #71
post #55

So far I think I have learned far more from LLMs than I've lost to them. I forget some syntax, definitely. But I now reach for a much wider range of tools that I have become familiar with because of LLMs. So, partly agree, partly disagree.

Yeah, I have to say some of this deskilling argument sounds like Socrates complaining about the invention of writing ruining people's ability to truly own the text. I really don't mourn my lost assembly skills or my lost C skills. And I'm not missing the details of whatever web framework du jour my Claude is vibing for me on my extremely useful dataviz internal tools; and I have learned how to rein the agents in to n…

I posted this elsewhere, but that story has a lot more nuance.

Plato (who actually wrote these quotes, because Socrates only spoke) wasn't against just "writing" in a general sense, or that he felt it was going to hold humanity back. He was against treatises and felt that someone could "memorize facts" without having to actually think about them on a deep level. Which I think, ironically, is not all that off the mark especially in the age of the internet and now LLMs, right? He also felt that memory could decay if we relied on written facts instead of having dialogues, which again, not all that off the mark, either. He underestimated the compounding capability of technology and our ability to record data and information, but people remember a lot less these days than they used to because we'd largely given up that ability in exchange for the instant information machines.

Of course, he's just one man (or two, if you consider he was conveying Socrates' thoughts, as well) who lived in ancient times and couldn't possibly foresee how technology would evolve...but when I went back and read his concerns, it was ironic to admit that much of what he warned about still applies to this day. People are far less informed despite having access to more information than we've ever had because we've exchanged the ability to remember for the ability to just look things up. And, we also have less meaningful dialog than ever before; people just sit on social media, copying and pasting "facts" to each other, instead of having actual productive discourse. When I look around, the world doesn't seem brimming with mindful critical thinkers and there's reasons for that (many reasons, of course).

AI tooling can be a boon to learning, but it requires us to stop using them for code generation as a primary purpose (at least for juniors) and instead advocate for Socratic workflows that still require manual coding practices. When someone decides to code something, it's not just learning syntax; it engages a variety of mental disciplines from critical thinking to planning to creative problem solving to logic and math, even.

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