Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

larsfaye.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 573 posts

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#71

Post by lanstin »

causal wrote: post #55

So far I think I have learned far more from LLMs than I've lost to them. I forget some syntax, definitely. But I now reach for a much wider range of tools that I have become familiar with because of LLMs. So, partly agree, partly disagree.

Yeah, I have to say some of this deskilling argument sounds like Socrates complaining about the invention of writing ruining people's ability to truly own the text. I really don't mourn my lost assembly skills or my lost C skills. And I'm not missing the details of whatever web framework du jour my Claude is vibing for me on my extremely useful dataviz internal tools; and I have learned how to rein the agents in to not ruin my high-performance Go code and yet debug concurrency issues. Maybe coding qua coding is what some people find their summum bonum, but for me programming is instrumentive - to build real things in the world that do things to make something better. When I want pure virtuosity of intellectual construction, I read maths papers in arxiv.

(Not to say that the current state of the art with LLMs merits borrowing money for a multi-trillion spend on hardware that will be obsolete in 5 years, but for me that is a different issue).

The master decrying the invention that resulted in more wisdom for more people than anything prior:

"For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem [275b] to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise." (quoting from https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439)

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#72

Post by shimman »

johsole wrote: post #51
gdulli wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very good point. People don't pull out their calculator in the grocery store to do analysis of unit costs or whatever, it's too much of a hassle for that small kind of analysis. But calculators have robbed us of the need to be good at doing that math in our heads. So the math doesn't get done.

Many grocery stores will already give you a per oz or per unit price so you can compare pricing for different brands that have different sizes. It's a very handy feature.

That's mandated by law, not because the grocery story wants to.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#73

Post by lanstin »

larsfaye wrote: post #26
toenail wrote: post #6

And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance.

Actually, they have for a large majority of the population. And fun fact: that debate is still going on, and the Mathematical Association of America (MAA) enacted a rule prohibiting calculator use in AMC. https://ivyleaguecenter.org/2024/03/12/over-reliance-on-calc... Math fosters critical thinking, and we've been in a critical thinking deficit for decades and decades. I don't think we can afford to sink even deeper.…

Because the 1890s and 1930s were famous for their population wide critical thinking, of course. Good heavens, what do they teach in the schools these days.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#75

Post by 01100011 »

TBH it was already pretty bad. There is a stark difference between the best and the average in my experience. The top, say, ten percent of coders are vastly better than anyone else when it comes to anything but boilerplate glue code(which is still needed and is better done by average coders anyway).

This is speaking from my experience as a systems/c/c++ guy. If you are a js web frontend guy, python, or whatever I have no idea if this applies to you.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#76

Post by lanstin »

dosisking wrote: post #68
toenail wrote: post #6

And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance.

> And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance. People can no longer drive a stick-shift car, whereas it used to be that a valet would always be able to drive one to park it.

I also can't make butter by churning or soap from lye and animal fat or what ever.

However, I can use mathematica to demonstrate the criteria for various forms topological stability of solutions to many types of differential equations. I'd rather live now.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#77

Post by harimau777 »

agileAlligator wrote: post #15
paul7986 wrote: post #5

Are engineers still making 100s of thousands a year still just for vibe coding while a nurse and other skilled / highly trained medical professionals working their butt off make half of that? Do we think there is going to be a correction for the vibe coders? Pardon I know such question is controversial but thinking ahead.

The Labor Theory of Value was defeated decades ago, get with the times

Unfortunately, we haven't found a better alternative.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#78

Post by snapetom »

xdavidliu wrote: post #60
chojeen wrote: post #46

I'm looking forward to having the same experience as COBOL engineers did after retirement: companies backing up the brinks truck to anyone with the skills to keep the lights on.

> backing up the brinks truck now that's a phrase I have only heard in one other context: as an alleged quote from former Boston Celtics player Isaiah Thomas (who was really about 5'7 despite his official listed 5'9; yes, professional basketball player in NBA). This was around 2017 when he had just come off a career year and was soon due for a contract extension in the low 9 figures. He got injured and bounced around…

It’s commonly used in college sports where one school’s fan base argue for poaching a coach at another school. “Back up the Brinks truck” == throw money at him.

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#79

Post by [deleted] »

ok_dad wrote: post #47
paul7986 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saving lives?

Is it my job to make sure that nurses are paid more than I am? I'll readily admit that they deserve it, I'm a lazy dickhead and they help people, but I think your blame is misplaced if you're insinuating that software engineers are to blame for nurses being paid less than ourselves.

[deleted]

Re: Coding expertise is going to collapse from AI reliance

#80

Post by lanstin »

Terr_ wrote: post #34
toenail wrote: post #6

And math skills are going to collapse from calculator reliance.

Not really the same, since your average calculator doesn't take over executive function . The user thought and decided what needs to happen, down to one extremely well-specified task, which is so unambiguous that it can be completed by rote and without context. This is more like paying someone else to read your math homework, generate answers, and maybe even submit them on your behalf. If that had been the (average)…

I think we'll find that the people doing that, like the people spending all their time and energy reading slasher pulp fiction in the 1950s, won't be doing as well as the people learning to enhance the power of their education and their expertise via LLMs and strategic alternating between GenAI and thinking about problems. And eventually, if society ever steadies up a bit, people will learn the useful ways of using technology in school and youth; and we'll be glad to be alive to see such marvels.

Assuming we can re-establish the will for democracy and taking care of the whole group.

Post reply on HN