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MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

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Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#31

Post by a1o »

initramfs wrote: post #21
JoeBOFH wrote: post #9

I had this trigger the other day incorrectly and went and installed Paint.net. I pasted in a screenshot I took and just wanted to resize it. I got a banner saying it was made with AI and would be updated to reflect that.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising if an application called "paint.net" can determined if AI was used when connected to the internet. (I have used Paint.net more than a decade ago).

They aren’t saying that, paint.net is an open source application, Paint is the descendant of MSPaint.

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#32

Post by gigel82 »

I'm honestly surprised they don't upload the entire image to apply the watermark server-side, to the point that I'd like someone else to repeat this investigation and confirm it's not happening.

Shipping the watermark generator on user's machine would make it very easy for someone motivated to find how it works and write a "watermark remover".

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#33

Post by initramfs »

aqfamnzc wrote: post #29
initramfs wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising if an application called "paint.net" can determined if AI was used when connected to the internet. (I have used Paint.net more than a decade ago).

Paint.net is named after the dot net framework and is not referring to a URL or the internet as I understand it.

ah, right, i vaguely recall that now. But why/how would it know AI was used, outside of a local LLM, weird it would say that AI was used (unless it's referring to the software itself).

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#34

Post by sixothree »

iAMkenough wrote: post #22
ixwt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keys could be stored in something like TPM on Camera, and could sign the image. The key could then be verified from the camera itself to prove the authenticity of the image. If we as a society deemed it necessary, the camera manufacturer could also provide a list of keys for devices they have manufactured. And an image/key could be provided, and the manufacturer could verify the authenticity that way. The TPM signing…

If I steal your camera while you're on vacation, do I then gain proof of ownership of your photos? If I need to reset TPM, how do I reclaim photos I took previously?

Finally a legitimate use for NFTs. /s

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#35

Post by BitwiseFool »

qurren wrote: post #30
weberer wrote: post #24

The AI aspect of this is a red herring. The real problem is that they're secretly adding in a unique identifier into every image you create. If somebody does not like your meme, they can just send a copyright subpoena to Microsoft to instantly get your full name, address, email, phone number, and any other data associated with your Microsoft account. Just like age verification, this is another weapon in the war again…

> address Do not tell Microsoft where you sleep. IANAL but they are not a government or financial institution and do not have a right to that information. Make sure you register mailing addresses with your credit card institutions in addition to your residential addresses, and make your mailing address your billing address so that you aren't forced to tell a thousand businesses like Microsoft where you sleep.

Windows 11 effectively forces users to register with a Microsoft account. Once that's established, all it takes is for an unaware user to fill out an e-commerce form and save an address for auto-fill.

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#36

Post by erk__ »

aqfamnzc wrote: post #29
initramfs wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising if an application called "paint.net" can determined if AI was used when connected to the internet. (I have used Paint.net more than a decade ago).

Paint.net is named after the dot net framework and is not referring to a URL or the internet as I understand it.

Paint.net actually just recently got ownership of paint.net, it only took 22 years: https://www.xda-developers.com/after-22-years-paintnet-downl...

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#37

Post by hypfer »

sixothree wrote: post #6

I think it would be nice if all cameras digitally signed pictures. You could prove the photo was real.

I don't think that that's a good idea, because it implies trust when there actually isn't any.

Being signed with something just means that whoever has that key could've done that. That might be the owner of a specific camera, but it might also be the camera manufacturer, anyone else in the supply chain, or anyone who dumped the key.

Imagine fake evidence signed with the same key as your camera uses being used in court against you. And the court believes it because it has this signature attached and those computers are very secure and all.

Exactly that will happen. Not widespread, of course, but it will.

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#38

Post by deadbabe »

gigel82 wrote: post #32

I'm honestly surprised they don't upload the entire image to apply the watermark server-side, to the point that I'd like someone else to repeat this investigation and confirm it's not happening. Shipping the watermark generator on user's machine would make it very easy for someone motivated to find how it works and write a "watermark remover".

It is already fairly trivial to write a universal watermark remover, an LLM can do it for you.

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#39

Post by cuu508 »

qurren wrote: post #30
weberer wrote: post #24

The AI aspect of this is a red herring. The real problem is that they're secretly adding in a unique identifier into every image you create. If somebody does not like your meme, they can just send a copyright subpoena to Microsoft to instantly get your full name, address, email, phone number, and any other data associated with your Microsoft account. Just like age verification, this is another weapon in the war again…

> address Do not tell Microsoft where you sleep. IANAL but they are not a government or financial institution and do not have a right to that information. Make sure you register mailing addresses with your credit card institutions in addition to your residential addresses, and make your mailing address your billing address so that you aren't forced to tell a thousand businesses like Microsoft where you sleep.

> Make sure you register mailing addresses with your credit card institutions

Sorry for a dumb question but what would one use as a mailing address? Rent a PO box, or use a mail forwarding service, something like that?

Re: MS Paint and Photos inivisibly watermark even locally generated output with GUID

#40

Post by sixothree »

615341652341 wrote: post #10
sixothree wrote: post #6

I think it would be nice if all cameras digitally signed pictures. You could prove the photo was real.

The hard part is deciding how much post processing is acceptable with these images. Feels like a lot of phone cameras optimize images and curious how much of it is considered “AI”

I was thinking any photo created with a camera should be signed. Why we don't have that in 2026 is beyond me.

But what you're talking about is the generative aspect of these photos likely expanding over time. We're seeing that today with the ultra zoom features on some cameras regenerating objects (and especially text). Without the user doing anything the phone will generatively fill in detail, most worryingly text and people. Then there's the Samsung moon issue - taking a photo of a pixelated printout of the moon caused Samsung phones to generate a new image of the moon.

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