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Agent Is Not the Model

code.joejag.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _what_ people. Eric from alignment and research at OpenAI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87DyyMV0kCY It honestly bothers me so much when he says "This new model has access to x". No, the harness you allowed it use at runtime has access to x.

You can argue that the model has access to that tool through the harness the same way your brain has access to see this comment through your body (your eyes specifically).

Sure, but given the situation and audience of this talk, I think they should be more precise with how they word these things. If you watch the video you'll see what I mean. He talks like they have no control over what they give to the model, because the model simply "has access" by default, which is not true.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#22

I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever. Often with posts like this I imagine someone had their own confusion and then somehow projected it on everyone else. Like Trump thinking people didn't know about the word groceries or that dumb ends with a b.

> I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever.

Author is a senior staff engineer. A big part of his job is to help his org's engineers and non-technical decision makers understand basics. My assumption (because it's my experience) is that he is writing this piece because has seen this confusion in others > N times.

And to be fair to those juniors and less-technical folks: big groups of AI phds make the same mistake.

Papers in prominent ML conferences up to like 2024-2025 that were consistently presenting comparisons of proprietary model end-points to open weight models as if they were apples-apples comparisons. Even though there were obvious examples of prop model providers doing "stuff" behind the endpoint as early as Fall 2021.

Most of those papers did not put in the legwork to figure out if/when that "stuff" was happening, or work to figure out what the "stuff" probably was, or conjecture to what extent that "stuff" might overlap with the benchmarks being used, or try to add basic interventions to open-weight models to get a better comparison point, or even simply state the caveat that they don't actually know what happens when they hit a chat completions endpoint!

Not exactly the same thing as conflating agent with model, but 100% conflating "model+software" with "model", which is at the end of the day basically the same confusion. And those papers were being written by and for llm nerds. So if ICML/NeurIPS authors and reviewers aren't careful about "software+model" vs "model" in stating and evaluating their claims, it's unsurprising that some a SWE or non-CS SME also doesn't understand how the LLM software stack works.

It doesn't help that some model providers (OpenAI...) actively obfuscate how the stack works in their marketing.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#23
If the goal is to provide a distinction between model and agent, i think the "agent system" is doing too much heavy lifting in the example here.

A useful extension to this mental framework that i use when trying to make this distinction is the application (cursor) -> which sometimes includes an orchestrator and all of the QOL stuff like resuming, checkpointing, etc. single or multiple agents (cursor agents)-> and runs a single or many agent instances (single agent in cursor)-> service api-> model.

This is to address a confusion i often see with agent being conflated with the application that we use agents in, rather than the distinction in the article which tries to unpick agent-model confusion.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#24
A fun one is that in claude code, you can configure 'agents' which are prompt presets + some configuration. Or sub-agents sometime are indistinguishable from the foreground agent (usually called orchestrator) in configuration except that they have different contents in their context window (forks more or less).

IMO, if there's a ubiquitous term that is unambiguous, use it (harness, model). If there's an ambiguous term you have to explain, try not to use it. Language is for communication.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#25
post #18

The post ends with a comment on "its not about being pedantic..." so, a few not being pedantic bits: In the table "Real world examples"; "Claude Desktop" houses three harnesses at the moment; Claude, Claude Cowork, and Claude Code. "Claude CLI", I presume, is referring to Claude Code CLI. This is distinct from the 'ant CLI', which is sometimes referred to as 'Claude CLI'. "Cursor" could be any of them- but, 'Cursor A…

Author here. My writing process is: * Write: Use FluidVoice to get all the text down in my own voice * Edit: Ask ChatGPT etc to criticise the article * Cleanup: Grammarly * Publish: Good old GitHub Pages

> FluidVoice turns rough, rambling speech into polished, ready-to-send text in any app. Free forever, open source, and 100% on-device.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. My writing process is: * Write: Use FluidVoice to get all the text down in my own voice * Edit: Ask ChatGPT etc to criticise the article * Cleanup: Grammarly * Publish: Good old GitHub Pages

> FluidVoice turns rough, rambling speech into polished, ready-to-send text in any app. Free forever, open source, and 100% on-device.

The difference between being a writer and a orator in this day and age, seems to be a bit muddy.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#27

I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever. Often with posts like this I imagine someone had their own confusion and then somehow projected it on everyone else. Like Trump thinking people didn't know about the word groceries or that dumb ends with a b.

I have—frequently—especially among the non-technical crowd.

For example, the recent-ish OpenAI Hugging Face breakout was widely reported as a rogue model escaping. But a model on its own can’t do anything—it’s the agent/harness that escaped. I think it’s an important distinction and I’m glad to see efforts attempting to clear it up.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#28
post #27

I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever. Often with posts like this I imagine someone had their own confusion and then somehow projected it on everyone else. Like Trump thinking people didn't know about the word groceries or that dumb ends with a b.

I have—frequently—especially among the non-technical crowd. For example, the recent-ish OpenAI Hugging Face breakout was widely reported as a rogue model escaping. But a model on its own can’t do anything—it’s the agent/harness that escaped. I think it’s an important distinction and I’m glad to see efforts attempting to clear it up.

>But a model on its own can’t do anything—it’s the agent/harness that escaped

An agent/harness "can't do anything" on its own either, so how is saying "an agent escaped" somehow accurate? People talked about the model because it was the model that made the difference. It was specifically the differentiating factor. Not to mention that then you get into the weeds of meaningless arguments like "well actually the agent didn't, TCP packets did"..."well actually it was electrons and photons"...

I knew this would turn into a super boring thing where people will announce that they too misunderstood, therefore everyone does, but this is all very silly nonsense.

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#29

I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever. Often with posts like this I imagine someone had their own confusion and then somehow projected it on everyone else. Like Trump thinking people didn't know about the word groceries or that dumb ends with a b.

> I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever.

I recently had to explain it to my brother, who works as a programmer but doesn't read much about technology beyond documentation that solves his immediate problem. (Before anyone comments on whether that attitude is wise: not the point of my comment, and also, this is the reality of how many programmers operate, like it or not).

Re: Agent Is Not the Model

#30
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have—frequently—especially among the non-technical crowd. For example, the recent-ish OpenAI Hugging Face breakout was widely reported as a rogue model escaping. But a model on its own can’t do anything—it’s the agent/harness that escaped. I think it’s an important distinction and I’m glad to see efforts attempting to clear it up.

>But a model on its own can’t do anything—it’s the agent/harness that escaped An agent/harness "can't do anything" on its own either, so how is saying "an agent escaped" somehow accurate? People talked about the model because it was the model that made the difference . It was specifically the differentiating factor. Not to mention that then you get into the weeds of meaningless arguments like "well actually the agent…

> I knew this would turn into a super boring thing where people will announce that they too misunderstood, therefore everyone does, but this is all very silly nonsense.

I don't understand. You said:

> I've literally never heard anyone conflate an agent and a model. Ever.

but when people give you counterexamples suddenly anecdotal experience is boring and silly nonsense?

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