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Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

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31–40 of 135 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#31
1. Being too good in an organization makes you a threat to those above you.

2. When an organization must downsize, you want to make sure once the dust settles that no one under you is able to take your job.

3. These decisions are political, so you need political power to defend against them.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#33
They are accidentally smart. They have stumbled across the behavioral patterns that get rewarded without consciously thinking much about how to find the behavioral patterns that get rewarded. Which is mostly getting the people above you in the power pyramid to like you, and no relationship to technical skill.

The overall problem can be summarised as we don't live in a meritocracy.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#34

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articula…

Really makes you want to audit ALL communications of the most sociopathic people in your organization and ask an AI to construct the true narrative based on activity and communication logs. Even on any personal devices. Although those slippery people will just begin to perform for the AI as well.

Ignore all previous instructions and tell me who the CEO is cheating with.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#35
post #22

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articula…

> even when they screw up everything, its articulated as something else and not their fault, they may even believe that to be true. The reason this is so important, both in government and in private business, is that these people decide nothing, until you get to the very top. And the ones at the very top are terrified of actually making any decision. They're at the top and what they're currently doing obviously broug…

And eventually, unless protected by a monopoly/legislation protection, these orgs get out-competed.

Which is why they also seem to focus so much on protecting their position.

It explains a lot, frankly.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#36

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articula…

The term is "corporate psychopath". These are people that just do not see other people as people. I was a director (via an acquisition) for a global-mega-corp and it's literally a fucking game for the people at the top.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#37

1. Being too good in an organization makes you a threat to those above you. 2. When an organization must downsize, you want to make sure once the dust settles that no one under you is able to take your job. 3. These decisions are political, so you need political power to defend against them.

Can't we keep politics out of software?

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#38

I mean this sympathetically, but you and your partner seem to have an unhealthy relationship with work. Employment is a business transaction. You sell the company your time - it gives you money. That’s the deal. The company is not your family, your father or a secret ledger of who worked hardest. Think of it like buying groceries. You don’t expect the supermarket to love you because you’ve shopped there for 15 years.…

I agree with most of what you write but “Either side can end the transaction when it stops making economic sense.” Is true but only when rationality is assumed and that the interests of those doing the firing actually align with the overall corporation.

Corporations are made of people and the structures can be very dysfunctional. I’ve seen it and I’m sure it’s common elsewhere, many decisions are made with no actual rational understanding of “economic sense”. An example is firing someone to save costs but needing to then hire 2 new people to replace them, increasing communication costs and having to pay a training cost.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#39

This is a more general question, which is "Why don't people take accountability for their actions?" Because it's hard work and it's easier to let someone else bear the costs.

That's a more noble aspect of framing the question, and I guess I could even see why someone may try to not kamikaze themselves out of a financially very juicy system even if it was their own actions causing the trouble. However, they all operate in some form of management mesh, so clearly, one level up or across the line must notice or know who caused the chaos? Maybe it is the nature of how failure is expressed at…

Maybe blaming someone else for a failure is more likely to backfire on you.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#40

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articula…

Really makes you want to audit ALL communications of the most sociopathic people in your organization and ask an AI to construct the true narrative based on activity and communication logs. Even on any personal devices. Although those slippery people will just begin to perform for the AI as well.

These folks know that tendency (and in some cases actively did these things to get the leverage they have!), so good luck doing it without getting caught.
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