I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
101–110 of 147 posts
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imho, the problem the EU is trying to solve isn't necessarily utility to the original buyer. It's the large stream of perfectly usable e-waste modern practices emit. Anything that makes a significant portion of that stream reusable by anyone is a win. If that's someone buying e-waste, unlocking devices, flashing linux, and then reselling it to whomever then that's still a win.
> It's the large stream of perfectly usable e-waste modern practices emit. From my point of view, the proposals suggested here, although difficult to discuss in detail because of how abstract they are, would not solve this issue in any meaningful way. By "meaningful" I mean that the cost-to-benefit or cost-to-regulation ratio would be rather poor. IMO, the core issue with e-waste isn't necessarily bad practices by ma…
This deserves a 'in the first world' caveat. Most waste streams terminate in the not-first world. There's a reason there are so many photos of African and SE Asian markets full of a hodgepodge of mobile device and English-printed t-shirts.
Which is to say, increasing repairability shouldn't just be measured by how likely the first world is to use it, but also to how useful it would be to downstream consumers.
To your list, there is a critical caveat to my caveat though: weight and volume.
Things like appliances (small motor, big bulky box) and furniture (bulky) are exceptions to the above, given their difficulty to efficiency ship en masse.
> I don't agree [consumer tendency to replace over repair] is primarily due to a lack of repair options or difficulty accessing repairs. In many cases, the means to repair these products already exist, but consumers simply choose to replace them instead.
It's a gradient, like all things. Repair has difficulty and cost. Policies (like this one) could be enacted which decrease that difficulty and cost. Are they worth it?
> cost-to-benefit or cost-to-regulation
Which gets to the measuring. My suspicion is that most HN commenters (myself included) are weighing from placing a high value on 'owning your own tools' which may not generalize to the populace.
But even so, I think it's a valid question of whether society would be 'better' if people had more ownership of their devices. Versus the current outsourcing to the mercy of Google / Huawei / Samsung / Vivo / Xioami / Apple.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#103I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#104I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
You are able to do that, just like you are able to drill out the cylinders of your brand new car. If you are skilled enough. But the manufacturer doesn't have any obligation to teach you how.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#105I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
You'd probably also get things like TVs with very basic software at import, with much better software available for people willing to obtain it outside the EU.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
the main issue is that's an ipad and it's locked. In contrast - a 15y+ laptop can be used (after few upgrades - i5-560M, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD, AC-8260) to do office work: it runs the latest Firefox and Open Office + googledocs and friends without too much trouble.
Android devices are unlocked, non-manufacturer OSes are still well outside of "easy" to install, much less get all features working. The main problem is that people maintaining the OS build for your hardware is the same people making the hardware. If legislation forced to divest both into separate companies the support would last far, far longer.
If only that were true. I have a Samsung S20 with 128gb storage and a adequate battery that is ewaste because of the locked bootloader and now permanently vulnerable kernel.
Not disagreeing with your premise (the same should be done with ISPs — own the connection or the wires, but not both). I'd just take the "hard" install with fewer features over what we have now.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
unlock old hardware and let the community support
It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual pro…
It's not. It's something they have to stop doing. Stop adding code that specifically stops third party software from running.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
You've just made an argument for a bunch of regulation to force opening up and removing obstacles. E.g.: "for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware." Given that everything has a radio these days (everything is wifi- and/or bluetooth- enabled), this is just stupid. Why is firmware for basically essential infra not legally available? Same goes for many, many, many other things.
> Given that everything has a radio these days [...] this is just stupid Manufacturers need to pass certification for their radio implementations, such as FCC, CE/RED, PTCRB, Bluetooth SIG, etc. Any modification to the radio firmware can potentially change the device's RF characteristics and cause it to fall outside of the conditions under which it was certified. This is why manufacturers generally cannot simply rele…
Why would this expose the manufacturer, and not the device owner?
> The firmware may contain proprietary code, algorithms, or other licensed technology that the manufacturer does not have the legal right to redistribute
As per my comment above: "Given that everything has a radio these days (everything is wifi- and/or bluetooth- enabled), this is just stupid. Why is firmware for basically essential infra not legally available?"
E.g. I don't buy the bullshit argument of security and legal something, and of proprietary algorithms, for example, when Philips suddenly starts requiring a log in to control its bulbs via bog standard protocols: https://hueblog.com/2023/09/21/philips-hue-soon-only-usable-...
The same goes for nearly everything else.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#109I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
It's pretty likely that manufacturers would charge handsomely for these requirements. At least at first. You'd probably also get things like TVs with very basic software at import, with much better software available for people willing to obtain it outside the EU.
Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force
#110I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce dr…
It's pretty likely that manufacturers would charge handsomely for these requirements. At least at first. You'd probably also get things like TVs with very basic software at import, with much better software available for people willing to obtain it outside the EU.