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New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

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Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#91

Post by idiotsecant »

euroderf wrote: post #43
expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

When did it become socially acceptable to throw things out rather than repair them ? When did it become economically rational ? Helsinki (for one) needs some real repair cafés.

Generally, and for small appliances and electronics especially, you can optimize for cost or repairability. Consumers largely do not consider repairability when purchasing but they hugely consider cost. It's easy to see why the market is disincentivized to create repairable goods.

It's because that's what we collectively told them to do.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#92

Post by m000 »

jhoechtl wrote: post #69

I would like to see small appliances inbuilt batteries (mostly Li-Ion based) be prohibted. It contributes to device obsolescence and is a security risk --> burning waste dumps.

Especially vaping devices. Cigarette butts were at least easier to dispose of than these plastic encased tips and single use vapes.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#93

Post by euroderf »

spockz wrote: post #50
euroderf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did it become socially acceptable to throw things out rather than repair them ? When did it become economically rational ? Helsinki (for one) needs some real repair cafés.

The moment manufacturers started making products that didn’t last long enough, with replacement parts expensive enough, and raising hourly rates for labour which made it cheaper to buy a new product rather than repair the old one. Also the new product tended to be more efficient with electricity and water or marketed as such.

My experience in the US is that you can take a broken item to a reputable shop and the guy will spend a minute or two messing with it and then he'll give you an on-the-spot estimate of repairability and price.

In Finland, the standard line is that they'll take your gizmo and put it in the repair queue - and then just to have someone in the back room so much as breathe on it - it's gonna cost ya 50, 80, a hundred.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#94

Post by master-lincoln »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #34
troupo wrote: post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

I think for these kind of scenarios what Apple should do is unlock the device when it officially stop supporting with new iOS updates. You bought the device and you own it, so you should be able to use it as long as you want.

This should be a day 1 requirement. Why only when they stop supporting it?

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#95

Post by apatheticonion »

I would like this to be extended to software.

If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system.

If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system.

If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software.

The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce drivers are not provided.

IMO, if the EU wants any technical sovereignty, they'd address this as I don't see European companies producing a competitor to the MacBook - I do however see European companies being capable of creating a competing operating system (or Linux) to install on a MacBook, but only if Apple is compelled to allow them.

The same goes for smartphones, cars, and any digital device

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#96

Post by master-lincoln »

DanielHB wrote: post #74
xxs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the main issue is that's an ipad and it's locked. In contrast - a 15y+ laptop can be used (after few upgrades - i5-560M, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD, AC-8260) to do office work: it runs the latest Firefox and Open Office + googledocs and friends without too much trouble.

Android devices are unlocked, non-manufacturer OSes are still well outside of "easy" to install, much less get all features working. The main problem is that people maintaining the OS build for your hardware is the same people making the hardware. If legislation forced to divest both into separate companies the support would last far, far longer.

I would also want that for TV software or car software.

But I guess there is no money to be made on that software...otherwise we would already see a bunch of non-manufacturer companies offering software for 3rd party devices that are unlocked, wouldn't we?

Or maybe the used hardware is just not documented well enough

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#97

Post by shevy-java »

> People now have the right to request that manufacturers repair products that are technically repairable under EU law.

This kind of misses the point though.

Don't get me wrong, the above is nice to have as a law, but it does not really understand the underlying problem domain. Louis Rossmann explained it several times already; the problem was not that primarily that upstream companies refuse to repair something, but that they deliberately make it harder for downstream folks to repair something, for many reasons. Planned obsolescence, trade secrets and other shenanigans, unable to purchase replacements parts and so forth. Having a law that forces easy repairs onto the upstream company, DOES NOT FIX THE DOWNSTREAM PROBLEM; and in some cases it will make it worse. If the EU were serious about fighting for consumers, they would require of all companies operating in the EU, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, to not deliberately make it harder for downstream people to repair things. We now live in the age of 3D printing, so really repairing anything should be much much easier (at the least for simple materials; I understand that 3D printing isn't that great yet with regards to tiny electronics parts). To me it seems as if lobbyists always sneak in and worsen the legislation here. Both in the EU and in the USA.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#98

Post by realusername »

vv_ wrote: post #75
realusername wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never stated that I own the intellectual property but I'm stating that I own the device and such, should be able to do any modification I see fit to the device, regardless if the manufacturer thinks it's a good idea or not. And yes, I also support adding laws to force manufacturers to respect my rights. > However, that shouldn't come with the expectation that the hardware's chain of trust remains intact or that all…

> I'm okay with that if the manufacturer doesn't remove features in bad faith Again with the abstract. Provide an example of a manufacturer removing features in "bad faith." It is very likely that what you view as a "bad faith" action actually has a reasonable explanation from the manufacturer's perspective. This is especially true in cases of chain-of-trust and anti-tamper protections. > I never stated that I own th…

> Provide an example of a manufacturer removing features in "bad faith."

Sure, any app not running because of artificial software restrictions (and no, I won't buy the claims of """security""" when even the manufacturer doesn't have a real picture of what's running on the phone and cannot assess it's security - or sometimes even includes built-in adware!).

Another example of bad faith could be Apple removing true tone on official screen replacement.

Again, I'm not against the concept of chain of trust, it's just I've never seen any software restriction which I would think justified, so a good use case might exist in theory, I'm just not aware of it.

> The other issues to resolve here would be anti-tamper and chain-of-trust concerns that could arise from such an approach

I have serious doubts that integrity checks and anti-tamper mechanisms are legal in the current environment anyways as there's no real competition in the mobile space and these are further barrier to create competitors (and were even created for this purpose in the first place in some cases, like in Android)

It's definitely against current anti trust laws. These companies are just too large and too wealthy for the laws to be applied at the moment.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#100

Post by iamnothere »

vv_ wrote: post #90
troupo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?

> You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs? The radio modules in iPads are compliant, assuming that the software using those radio modules is compliant as well. This is why manufacturers have to enforce specific combinations of software and hardware, as not all of the functionality and regulatory constraints are implemen…

You can also do this with Linux, a laptop or desktop, and many wireless cards. Hell, you can change your region in OpenWRT and make your router noncompliant.
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