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Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

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Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#91

Post by quitting33 »

josephg wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I originally learned linear algebra from Gilbert Strang's OCW videos, and I was only able to stick with them by 2x'ing the playback rate; at this point, hearing Strang at his normal speaking rate sounds to me like hearing him after a Robitussin bender.

I wish YouTube let you increase the speed of videos past 2x. I play almost everything at 2x now, and I have no problem comprehending videos at that speed. I’d like to try 2.5x or 3x but the ui doesn’t have that option.

[dead]

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#92

Post by rustcleaner »

dprkh wrote: post #22
homieg33 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what my kid said about why he doesn’t like Kahn academy.

What would you recommend over khan academy?

Herbert Gross' lecture style, in MIT Calculus Revisited, would be nice:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3B08AE665AB9002A

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1C22D4DED943EF7B

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD971E94905A70448

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#93

Post by hirvi74 »

teiferer wrote: post #33
wafflemaker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH creating neural connections takes time. It's a real distance. Small for us, but great for the cells. That's why explaining difficult concepts too fast, while cool for people getting things instantly, is not good for general population.

I very much agree and it saddens me often when I see folks dial it up to 1.5x or 2x "because it is boring otherwise". They might think they just get as much, only in half the time, but I'd hypothesize that they retain less because the mind needs some time to digest. Similar with the trend to auto-cut pauses that speakers make, just to cram in more text into a youtube video. Destroys not just the pacing but any chance…

I remember reading a study a while back about learning from videos at 1.5x to 2x speed. The key observation that actually made the learning more efficacious was to watch the video at 2x speed two times back to back. Apparently, this method was also better than watching the video one time at normal speed. I suppose it's because one get twice the exposure for the same amount of time.

I haven't looked for the study, but I can if you are truly curious.

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#94

Post by somenameforme »

teiferer wrote: post #33
wafflemaker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH creating neural connections takes time. It's a real distance. Small for us, but great for the cells. That's why explaining difficult concepts too fast, while cool for people getting things instantly, is not good for general population.

I very much agree and it saddens me often when I see folks dial it up to 1.5x or 2x "because it is boring otherwise". They might think they just get as much, only in half the time, but I'd hypothesize that they retain less because the mind needs some time to digest. Similar with the trend to auto-cut pauses that speakers make, just to cram in more text into a youtube video. Destroys not just the pacing but any chance…

I'd argue (as the article does), that you don't 'really' learn from watching stuff, fast or slow, but from actually working with and doing. This is completely obvious in the physical domain. You could take a ten year course on the basketball free throw and watch a billion hours of video on it, but then when you get on the court and actually do it - you're going to shoot pretty much like somebody who's never shot before.

And I think the same is true in academic domains. If you're trying to think about something consciously, you're going to do a poor job of it. And the only way to get the unconscious competence is through a bunch of 'doing'. Chess is a great example of this because it's purely mental yet again you're never going to gain any degree of significant competence without playing a lot. Interestingly this even applies after mastery. A master who has played e.g. 1. e4 their entire life and then swaps to 1. d4 isn't going to be playing at the same level as he plays 1. e4 even if watches thousands of hours of videos on it beforehand. That connection you make by doing and interacting with things is just critical.

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#95

Post by blagie »

BenzeneDream wrote: post #43
blagie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong in understanding the article. Khan: Videos + rote exercises Learning: Projects, complex problem-solving, exploration, argumentation, etc. Dewey is worth reading.

Direct Instruction - and the largest educational study ever untaken Project Follow Through - would like a work. Project based learning? Recall practice IS learning. Projects, exploration, and discovery-based "learning" sounds great in theory but in practice, without actual testing, really doesn't live up to the hype. Adam Boxer is worth reading.

I should clarify -- since from both posts, my comment was ambiguous and misinterpreted:

I was explaining the article, not my views, since the top-level comment did not read it.

Regarding your comment, it is as wrong as the article. BOTH are important. Recall practice is great for e.g. developing surface understanding, declarative knowledge, and well-done, procedural knowledge.

That type of knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient, for high-level performance in most fields, at least beyond a spelling bee or vocab exam. To understand gaps, see:

- Complex problem-solving, which includes extensive conditional, conceptual, metacognitive, etc. knowledge. (e.g. see how top participants prep for math olympiads)

- Attitudes towards school / learning (one of the top predictors of future success by 3rd grade, together with reading)

- Transfer learning

- Cross-cutting / not explicitly represented knowledge / literature on expert blindspot

- Etc.

"Projects, exploration, and discovery-based 'learning'" work great in practice, when properly structured, which usually means explicit, well-defined learning objectives.

Bad: "Make a nice poster on selling a car"

Good: "Independently explore an organ system of the human body. Make a nice poster synthesizing what you learned and present it to the classroom in three weeks."

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#96

Post by blagie »

jknoepfler wrote: post #24
blagie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong in understanding the article. Khan: Videos + rote exercises Learning: Projects, complex problem-solving, exploration, argumentation, etc. Dewey is worth reading.

Particularly in early mathematics and language acquisition (but also in most learning domains) you need both rote learning and exploratory learning. Fundamental concepts + exercises to build muscle memory are foundational to enabling students to participate fruitfully in meaningful projects, complex problem-solving, exploration and argumentation. If you're flailing around without having memorized basic trigonometric…

I was explaining the article, not making a statement about how learning works. My comment was poorly phrased.

I agree with everything you said, except Vygotsky. :)

Vygotsky is worth reading, since:

- He is evidence-based. He isn't just a theorist. He cites studies. This contrasts with educational philosophers which dominated literature of the time.

- He is universally misquoted in US education literature, usually to say banally obvious things.

- He is brilliant.

- In the concept of ZPD, US education literature usually says the literal opposite of what Vygotsky said.

Do you really thing the concept of scaffolding didn't exist before 1900?

Curiously, Vygotsky precisely has a passage about (positive) experience with throwing special-needs students into the deep end of the pool on tasks they can't succeed with, and contradicts the (incorrect) intuition behind the teaching process implied by:

"Ultimately the child needs to internalize these basics to succeed in more complex projects with a sense of independence."

To be specific, a child does need to ultimately internalize these, but one of the best ways to do so is through a certain type of struggle, rather than breaking down into little pieces, in the ways consistently attributed to him.

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#97

Post by geokon »

I think the core thesis - that videos aren't the full package - makes a lot of sense. But I don't see why Khanmigo couldn't in theory fill in some of the other pieces.

I'm reminded o A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer from The Diamond Age - and how LLMs haven't been able to achieve anything similar. With the correct supervising AI agents that have their own goals - I don't see why you couldn't have an LLM try to motivate you, or gamify education tailored to your interests and targeted at the areas you are struggling with. Somehow weaving in their own education videos seems way too difficult though - it feels like it should be an entirely different thing

Maybe Khanmigo just kinda sucks? Having a ton of funding doesn't mean its the best possible solution. I've never used it, so it's hard for me to judge.

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#98

Post by blagie »

foxglacier wrote: post #21
blagie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a bad idea in concept, but the core problem is what he delivered was: "essentially global learning via all the Khan videos, in math, by him, and in other subjects, by his team." Khan Academy is 2010-era state-of-the-art for rote learning and procedural knowledge. That's a helpful resource, but as one world schoolhouse, there is: - No room for creativity, or much of anything similar from students (outside of…

Creativity isn't learning, it's the application of learning, and that's not what school is for. There has always been value in somebody showing you how to apply a math technique and practicing using it to solve problems. It's not creative but it gives us the skills to do useful things in the world - including creative things. Even pure rote learning (such as reciting the periodic table) is useful so you can later dra…

> that's not what school is for

Most people would disagree with you about the purpose of school.

Article cites Dewey, who wrote a lot of text about what school is for. Friere is also worth reading there. You'll see a diversity of perspectives.

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#99

Post by milesvp »

teiferer wrote: post #33
wafflemaker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH creating neural connections takes time. It's a real distance. Small for us, but great for the cells. That's why explaining difficult concepts too fast, while cool for people getting things instantly, is not good for general population.

I very much agree and it saddens me often when I see folks dial it up to 1.5x or 2x "because it is boring otherwise". They might think they just get as much, only in half the time, but I'd hypothesize that they retain less because the mind needs some time to digest. Similar with the trend to auto-cut pauses that speakers make, just to cram in more text into a youtube video. Destroys not just the pacing but any chance…

There’s a great lecture on giving lectures by an MIT prof. He says you can give no more than 3 ideas per hour, and you must repeat yourself at least 3 times for each idea. And while, part of his thesis is because people might miss something due to their attention, and needs of the group vs individual I think his experience is still highly relevant. I know that I don’t learn as much unless there’s room for almost boredom. I find there is a feeling similar to boredom that I have to experience to really internalize something. It’s almost like I can feel the neurons rewiring (though I suspect it might just be an emotion that encourages the energy expenditure necessary for learning). If I skim, or do doubletime, then that feeling usually never comes, and there’s a good chance my future recall will be poor…

https://youtu.be/Unzc731iCUY?si=Gfiq1tonSf5KLePy

Re: Why Sal Khan't: On Learning by Making but Teaching by Telling

#100

Post by josephg »

blackoil wrote: post #83
josephg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish YouTube let you increase the speed of videos past 2x. I play almost everything at 2x now, and I have no problem comprehending videos at that speed. I’d like to try 2.5x or 3x but the ui doesn’t have that option.

You can do it in YT premium.

Weird thing to put behind a paywall! I'll try some extensions.
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