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Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

erikengdahl.se

81–90 of 134 posts

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#81
post #9

Is there value to people constantly self-diagnosing themselves or seeking clinical diagnoses for neurodivergency? I don't mean this in a disparaging way; but surely constantly seeking to remind both yourself and society of your neurodivergency and any shortcomings you have with that seems almost like a crab bucket mentality that you are enveloping yourself with. I don't have a problem with people looking inwards, but…

This appears to assume that seeking diagnosis is somehow self-limitation instead of functional troubleshooting.

In practice, understanding one's neurotype can provide the foundation necessary towards addressing friction, dealing with environments developed exclusively for a radically different baseline, and getting the support and care necessary to have a reasonable quality of life.

The alternatives often lead to massive dysfunction, especially since it compounds with systemic gaslighting and being told that the hell you're experiencing is normal and that it's a character flaw to have any difficulties or differences.

The satire of ISNT frames the very real negative framing that was already deeply pervasive 28 years ago.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#82
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it is a mistake. If you say it is a mistake, then you must know what the goal is.

If we are talking about genes, the goal is to keep the ability to duplicate itself. If there is anything about this duplication process that has lead to the individual's brain development with difficulties to adapt to life with their tribe, socialization and chances of finding a mate are also hindered.

So if all the tribe goes to one water source because that's what they always do. And someone decides they want to try other water sources because they don't want to use the traditional source just because it's always been done that way.

What happens when the traditional source gets contaminated?

The outsider then has an advantage.

Yes tribal dynamics require people to act like sheep, but that can lead to getting stuck in local maxima, and not having any diversity.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#83
"What if I'm the normal one and the rest of society is wrong"

This kind of framing-inversion might work as a coping mechanism to get you through some dark times as a spergy adolescent. But eventually you have to reconcile yourself to the reality of autism: it really is a neuro-developmental disorder and you actually do have deficits in social understanding, which you might be able to improve with deliberate effort. You have a lot stacked against you, but if you're well into adulthood and still stewing in this self-defeating resentment, that is a moral failing.

The linked article is old so it pre-dates the "neurodivergence" idea, but the comments here are using it uncritically. "Neurodivergence" de facto just means "autistic and/or ADHD", usually with a particular kind of autistic taking a dominant role in discussions and advocacy. It has always been a political coalition (quite an esoteric one).

But when you take ADHD on its own terms, the social-model extremism of "neurodiversity" advocates is particularly silly and harmful. ADHD people are perfectly happy with the disability-model; there clearly is something wrong with our brains, it's measurable with brain scans, and the symptoms can be improved with drugs. Don't tell me that ADHD is some equally-valid "attention orientation" or whatever social-model pretzel phrase you might come up with.

As for autism: try telling someone with severe autism, someone who can't speak or clothe or feed themselves that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid neurotype. Try telling it to their caretakers. It's a risible luxury-belief enjoyed by autistics only slightly on the spectrum, and indulged by people who don't know better.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#84
post #9

Is there value to people constantly self-diagnosing themselves or seeking clinical diagnoses for neurodivergency? I don't mean this in a disparaging way; but surely constantly seeking to remind both yourself and society of your neurodivergency and any shortcomings you have with that seems almost like a crab bucket mentality that you are enveloping yourself with. I don't have a problem with people looking inwards, but…

I'm 42. Autism as it applies to me wasn't really on the radar for most of my life. I have always had to deal with the majority of people thinking different to me. Knowing the label gives me access to tools and research, so I'm not just one weird individual.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#85
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a health problem though. Neurodivergency (christ I hate that word) is far more prevalent than you'd expect, particularly ASD and ADHD, some 20% of the population. These traits have self selected for a reason, and any issues encountered are a fault of modern society not the individual imo.

> These traits have self selected for a reason, and any issues encountered are a fault of modern society not the individual imo. I mean, quite apart from the fact that you can be so profoundly autistic that you are vulnerable and cognitively limited, and so profoundly ADHD that you are incapable of keeping yourself safe. I am as yet formally undiagnosed ADHD; it is obvious, so obvious to me that either I am in later…

Sorry for your struggles. Not to speak to your specific experience but in evolutionary terms there are other ways to look at neurodivergence besides the challenges: https://complementarycognition.co.uk/

Hyperfocus for example can be highly beneficial if you manage to point it in the right direction, and in general neurodivergence tends to specialise either into explorers or exploiters, that is, those who are good at exploring the space of possible solutions, and those who are good at applying a specific solution to solve the problem at hand. Such skills can be problematic in isolation (as you've described), but in combination can be very powerful and could've therefore been instrumental to our past success as a species.

I understand this is not much comfort for an individual who is struggling, but I second the GP in saying that many modern societies are not setup to provide the best environment for the neurodivergent among us to thrive, to the detriment of everyone.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#87
post #4

I'm torn on whether I like this parody. It is quite funny and IMO in good taste (which is hard to do when diagnosing 9,625 out of every 10,000 as deficient). It probably works well as an in-joke for people who prefer critical thinking to social proof. But it isn't really appropriate to fight fire with fire when it comes to calling people disordered and the people who need to hear the message won't understand it becau…

It’s probably worth noting it’s (2002) too. The internet was a different audience.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#88
post #72

Oh yes and probably the authors themselves have a related form on neuro-atypical-divergence know as neuro-tragically-compulsive-analisys disorder, related to a quite common social-accademic-pressure about being in control and classificate all things they do not have in control and that they do not clearly can relate with, causing a pathology, relatively benign, consisting in create pseudo-scientific-terms to apply to…

After reading this several times, I've tried to identify if your satire is trying to meet the author's satire somewhere over the Atlantic, or if it's aimed at some kind of self-reference or in-joke that I'm just not parsing.

It demonstrates the author's point from back in the 1990s so well, but also makes its own biting social commentary on how often authoritative-sounding language gets weaponized by a majority to dismiss and mock that which they fail to understand.

Impressive level of historical continuity. The dryness nearly threw me.

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#89
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we are talking about genes, the goal is to keep the ability to duplicate itself. If there is anything about this duplication process that has lead to the individual's brain development with difficulties to adapt to life with their tribe, socialization and chances of finding a mate are also hindered.

So if all the tribe goes to one water source because that's what they always do. And someone decides they want to try other water sources because they don't want to use the traditional source just because it's always been done that way. What happens when the traditional source gets contaminated? The outsider then has an advantage. Yes tribal dynamics require people to act like sheep, but that can lead to getting stuc…

Amazing strawman you built here. Very impressive. Now try to argue the actual point, maybe?

Re: Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical

#90
post #83

"What if I'm the normal one and the rest of society is wrong" This kind of framing-inversion might work as a coping mechanism to get you through some dark times as a spergy adolescent. But eventually you have to reconcile yourself to the reality of autism: it really is a neuro-developmental disorder and you actually do have deficits in social understanding, which you might be able to improve with deliberate effort. Y…

> "What if I'm the normal one and the rest of society is wrong"

You do realise they’re not saying that in earnest, right? The point is to demonstrate the absurdity of it.

> But eventually you have to reconcile yourself to the reality of autism: it really is a neuro-developmental disorder and you actually do have deficits in social understanding, which you might be able to improve with deliberate effort.

The reality is that what you just wrote is just as true in the non-autistic → autistic direction (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1362361320919286). Blaming one side for this bidirectional mismatch is not a universal truth.

https://neuroqueer.com/throw-away-the-masters-tools/

“If we start from the assumption that neurotypicals are ‘normal,’ and Autistics are ‘disordered,’ then poor connections between neurotypicals and Autistics inevitably get blamed on some ‘defect’ or ‘deficit’ in Autistics. If an Autistic can’t understand a neurotypical, it’s because Autistics have empathy deficits and impaired communication skills; if a neurotypical can’t understand an Autistic, it’s because Autistics have empathy deficits and poor communication skills. All the frictions and failures of connection between the two groups, and all the difficulties Autistics run into in neurotypical society, all get blamed on Autism. But when our vision is no longer clouded by the illusion of ‘normal,’ we can recognize this double standard for what it is, recognize it as just another manifestation of the sort of privilege and power that dominant majorities so often wield over minorities of any sort.”

> As for autism: try telling someone with severe autism, someone who can't speak or clothe or feed themselves that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid neurotype.

As for womanhood: try telling someone with severe endometriosis or menstrual pain that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid gender.

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