Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border • Hacker News Board

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#941

Post by thesmtsolver2 » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 5:55 PM UTC

usern20260720 wrote: post #728

raluk wrote: post #726

From Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) accepted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 -------- Article 12 No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-de…

The US is not a country governed by the rule of the law

This is the kind of comment that is considered informative and acceptable?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#942

Post by roosterIllusi0n » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:02 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #811

usern20260720 wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not a country governed by the rule of the law

I get that the political system could be better, but having been to places that actually are not governed by the rule of law, I can assure you that the US is doing quite well on that front. When there is actually no rule of law, consequences include: + entire regions / areas where merely visiting those areas invites a highly non-trivial (think, more than 10% chance) chance of being kidnapped or murdered + every neigh…

Low standards for you doesn't change the higher standards the US is designed to have. People voted very badly by not rejecting republicans. That does not mean those who did not should give up on restoring higher standards. States do have powers too.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#943

Post by jmilloy » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:06 PM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #897

gcanyon wrote: post #849

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

Destroying evidence is legal all day long, even with the law waiting out front, unless some other precondition is attached to that evidence destroying. One thing that makes it illegal is (over-simplifying) destroying it when you knew you had a duty to retain it. To the legal search example, suppose the police frequently stop by your house to discuss neighborhood gremlins. If they happened to accidentally see the boxe…

I'm curious if/why you think these considerations apply to this situation. This isn't a case of someone routinely destroying data and happening to do so right before a border check. Isn't this a case where the person wiping their phone right before a search, or actually tricking border patrol into wiping it, should know he had "a duty to retain it"?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#944

Post by neoCrimeLabs » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:10 PM UTC

I am surprised how little Jacob Applebaum's experience border crossing in 2010 is mentioned in relation to this story, because it is relevant.

https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/researcher-detained-at-u-s...

While so many people try to come up with technical solutions for legal concerns, the method Jacob used was pragmatic.

You cannot be compelled to turn over what you do not have

If you're concerned about your digital devices while crossing borders, do not forget a viable option is to simply not have a digital device with you when you cross.

Put simply, do not limit your imagination to purely technical means.

Of course, there may be means to compel you to retrieve that data, but typically at border crossings your primary threat surface is physical possession.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#945

Post by gcanyon » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:21 PM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #897

gcanyon wrote: post #849

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

Destroying evidence is legal all day long, even with the law waiting out front, unless some other precondition is attached to that evidence destroying. One thing that makes it illegal is (over-simplifying) destroying it when you knew you had a duty to retain it. To the legal search example, suppose the police frequently stop by your house to discuss neighborhood gremlins. If they happened to accidentally see the boxe…

> Destroying evidence is legal all day long

Again, I'm not a lawyer, so don't listen to me, but obstruction of justice is a thing, so I'm not sure how you can say that.

> The _intent_ behind your actions, at least in this case, is a core component of the crime.

Agreed, but irrelevant to the physical vs. digital question.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#946

Post by linuxhansl » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:22 PM UTC

usern20260720 wrote: post #728

raluk wrote: post #726

From Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) accepted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 -------- Article 12 No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-de…

The US is not a country governed by the rule of the law

While there are things less than ideal in the US, this is absolutely not the case.

The "Rule of Law" applies to everybody, including the President (recent decisions of the supreme court not withstanding - though they are very unfortunate). You have provisions for the freedom of press, freedom of speech, to be free from unreasonable searches, a reliable court system, etc, etc.

Searches at the border are murky legal territory, and I think that there is a problem here. You may also argue that the president and senate have too much power, or that gerrymandering is a serious problem (which it is). But from these you cannot conclude a general lawlessness.

(I'm from North-Western Europe, living in the US for a few decades now, so I feel that I have at least some data to compare.)

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#947

Post by hansvm » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:23 PM UTC

jmilloy wrote: post #943

hansvm wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destroying evidence is legal all day long, even with the law waiting out front, unless some other precondition is attached to that evidence destroying. One thing that makes it illegal is (over-simplifying) destroying it when you knew you had a duty to retain it. To the legal search example, suppose the police frequently stop by your house to discuss neighborhood gremlins. If they happened to accidentally see the boxe…

I'm curious if/why you think these considerations apply to this situation. This isn't a case of someone routinely destroying data and happening to do so right before a border check. Isn't this a case where the person wiping their phone right before a search, or actually tricking border patrol into wiping it, should know he had "a duty to retain it"?

Not necessarily, no, it's not clear that the person knew they had that duty. If you strongly believe the search is illegal, e.g. after being denied a lawyer, you might not think you're destroying evidence illegally.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#948

Post by gcanyon » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:24 PM UTC

cmiles74 wrote: post #862

gcanyon wrote: post #849

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

I can sort of see what they mean if I squint some. Sure, destroying evidence to avoid a warrant is a crime and people understand this. OTOH this was a warrantless search, I’d argue this is materially different. AFAICT, people can still refuse to provide a password to evidence that may incriminate them. I also think scope is much, much larger than searching a home or office. The kind of data people have in their phone…

>I find this kind of searching of citizens to be pretty crazy

Agreed, and my original point: the issue is the search, not the charge being related to digital or physical information.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#949

Post by gcanyon » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:24 PM UTC

mctt wrote: post #869

gcanyon wrote: post #849

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer) Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying…

Evidence has not been destroyed. And if we are using that analogy the key to the locked box has been thrown away. No evidence was destroyed.

The phone was wiped, no?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#950

Post by hansvm » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 6:27 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #910

hansvm wrote: post #897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destroying evidence is legal all day long, even with the law waiting out front, unless some other precondition is attached to that evidence destroying. One thing that makes it illegal is (over-simplifying) destroying it when you knew you had a duty to retain it. To the legal search example, suppose the police frequently stop by your house to discuss neighborhood gremlins. If they happened to accidentally see the boxe…

Once police open an investigation or once there is a lawsuit served, destroying evidence relevant to that lawsuit is illegal. The question here is whether the police were in investigation mode. I believe it is an overreach to claim that everybody at a border was going through an investigation. And it is also a overreach that everyone who is selected for search at the border is under investigation.

No, "knowingly" destroying evidence associated with that investigation is illegal. After a lawsuit is served, yes, it's probably pretty easy to prove ill intent. Opening an investigation may or may not suffice, and whether the police were in investigation mode is not the whole question. The prosecution has many individual elements they need to prove, _including_ intent.