Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border • Hacker News Board

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#841

Post by inigyou » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:53 PM UTC

Vegenoid wrote: post #328

Zak wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a half-truth. In a full banana republic, technical compliance with the law will not prevent consequences for failing to do what the authorities want. In a jurisdiction with perfect rule of law, it always will. The USA is somewhere in between. One of the laws that's enforced pretty well in the USA is the protection against unreasonable search. Most of the time, a search requires showing a judge evidence that t…

Agree with the thrust of your comment, but I had to comment on this: > In a full banana republic, technical compliance with the law will not prevent consequences for failing to do what the authorities want. In a jurisdiction with perfect rule of law, it always will. I think you may be misunderstanding that many laws, even in fair, just societies, are intentionally designed to be flexible. The real world is so variabl…

In a non-rule-of-law country though, they don't even try.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#842

Post by chrisjj » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:53 PM UTC

solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Zak wrote: post #189

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border. There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The…

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

> Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged

Inc. hiding by leaving it your home country?

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#843

Post by inigyou » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:54 PM UTC

tamimio wrote: post #245

solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

Yes, trying to solve a regulation or legal issue by some technical workaround will never work, you have to fight it at the same level, legally, or system-wise, otherwise, you will be like the person who tries to wash the stairs from the bottom all the way up, it rarely works, you gotta go up to down, collectively go against the matter rather than individually duct taping it for your own specific needs. In that exampl…

one part of resisting is installing GrapheneOS.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#844

Post by Taek » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:54 PM UTC

inexcf wrote: post #818

Taek wrote: post #811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that the political system could be better, but having been to places that actually are not governed by the rule of law, I can assure you that the US is doing quite well on that front. When there is actually no rule of law, consequences include: + entire regions / areas where merely visiting those areas invites a highly non-trivial (think, more than 10% chance) chance of being kidnapped or murdered + every neigh…

Man while reading your points i was thinking your last sentence will be a sarcastic note that implies that these points all do actually apply to the US. Of course the US as a whole is not comparable to other parts of the world where these points absolutely apply but points 1,2,4 and 5 seem to apply to a significant extent.

What parts of the United States can you visit which have a >10% chance of being kidnapped or murdered? That means for every 100 visitors, 10 people don't come home. I honestly don't think that applies to a single neighborhood in the entire country. If murder/kidnapping rates get remotely close to that high, the FBI steps in.

I also can't think of any US cities where neighborhoods have military grade armed security. Sure, there are places where every local business has an armed guard, but that's not really the same as hiring a trained private militia. The armed guards are for protecting against petty theft, not for protecting against organized crime.

On point four, I'm not sure if there are places in the US where minorities need to maintain relationships social relationships with cops as a survival mechanic, but it certainly doesn't apply to most cities, and I don't think it applies to anyone who is white.

On point five, I don't think you understand. There are parts of the world where having white skin will get you, quite literally, reminders every 15 minutes "hey it's really not safe for you here, do you want to hang out inside my shop while I call you a taxi?" No part of the US is like that for travelers. I know there are occasionally ICE raids that make the news, but "hey you strictly cannot be outside without a local chaperone" is just not a thing in the US.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#845

Post by chrisjj » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:54 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #766

solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

The only practical measure you can take is to wipe your devices before travel.

Definitely sounds like the crime of hiding data.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#846

Post by gottorf » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:55 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #748

raluk wrote: post #726

From Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) accepted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 -------- Article 12 No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-de…

The U.S. is actively hostile to the UN as an entity, and to what it stands for, and has been for a long, long time - now, the mask has come off.

> the UN as an entity, and to what it stands for

What do you imagine the UN stands for? Let's not make the mistake of judging a program by its name or intention and not by its output. Mind you, this is the same UN on whose Human Rights Council sat such eminent proponents of human rights as Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, Afghanistan, and Cuba.

Besides, the US historically funded about a third of the UN, out of 193 member states. It's farcical to suggest that the US is "actively hostile" to the thing that wouldn't even exist without its backing.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#847

Post by inigyou » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 1:55 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #554

solid_fuel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fun to fantasize about these things some times, but there is no technical solution to tyranny. Laws are not like code, intent matters. Ultimately if the intent is that the government wants to see your private data, hiding it in any way will be charged - it doesn't matter if you jump through hoops to avoid this specific instance.

This is false. If you can image and wipe your phone on the plane before landing, and write those random bytes to a usb stick, the usb stick will appear blank, because encrypted data is noise. You land with a factory blank phone. You clear customs and get where you are going and restore your phone. Substitute cloud storage for a USB stick if you do it at your departure hotel. There are absolutely technical solutions t…

All of your websites are missing the legally required Impressum, comrade. It must contain your full legal name and address.

I'm serious, this is the law in Germany. It's also a great demonstration of a shitty law that people prefer to avoid complying with, which surely has something to do with the topic.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#848

Post by inigyou » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 2:00 PM UTC

thiht wrote: post #788

hirvi74 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be less of a hassle to buy a burner phone to travel with. It's not a felony to not bring your main phone when leaving the country.

Until they decide it’s a felony

Actually they have almost done that. People have been harassed, detained or denied entry for coming with no phone or only a blank phone.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#849

Post by gcanyon » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 2:00 PM UTC

I read a pretty compelling argument by a lawyer that we're looking at this the wrong way. (I Am Not A Lawyer)

Their point was that if the law is knocking on your door to legally search your house, and you have records of your criminal empire printed out in boxes in your attic, or just non-illegal things you don't want people to see, and you burn those papers while the law waits out front, you're guilty of destroying evidence. The fact that this is all digital changes nothing.

The problem is with the legality of the search, not the charge of destroying evidence.

Re: Felony charges for citizen deleting phone data at US Border

#850

Post by inigyou » Sat, Aug 22, 2026, 2:01 PM UTC

panny wrote: post #247

Zak wrote: post #189

For exactly the border search scenario, I wish smartphones could be imaged and restored as easily as PCs. Imagine booting the phone from a flash drive, making an encrypted image of the phone on said drive, and writing a fresh OS before reaching the border. There's no deception required to protect sensitive data or avoid the seizure of an expensive phone. Consent to unlocking the phone, refuse to unlock the drive. The…

Think for a moment. What is the difference between giving them a password which wipes the phone and giving them a password which opens a blank phone? It's the same thing. They punched in a code, they are presented with a wiped phone. Can they prove the guy gave them a distress password and wasn't simply carrying a wiped phone to begin with? No, but they just need to imply that is the reason to charge him with the fel…

The actual difference in this case is that the victim told the cops that the code had wiped the phone. That's a confession. Visible differences aren't relevant.