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There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

danluu.com

191–200 of 530 posts

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#191

I agree with the headline, but I don't think LLMs are a reliable way of optimizing software. First of all, coding speed is not the main bottleneck. I've been working on my own JavaScript framework. Most of my work is talking to people about challenges they have with web development, doing research on existing tools, and thinking about features to add. Coding more slowly without LLM usage is a benefit because it helps…

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Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you are saying the market doesn't care if your software is slow, or quoting someone else. Either way it's objectively false and that has been known for decades. Making users wait is a surefire way to make them engage with your product less, and the more you make them wait the less they will use it. If your boss doesn't care about your software being slow he's incompetent. https://services.google.com/f…

Experiments demonstrate that increasing web search latency 100 to 400 ms reduces the daily number of searches per user by 0.2% to 0.6% It obviously depends a lot on what you do, but often that doesn't matter.

Do you think most websites are hitting 100ms? You are picking silly numbers. The real world case is more like 500ms vs 2.5s. The pingdom numbers suggest that is more like 5%. It's very common for pages to take over 5s to load. That is a huge bounce multiplier. I just did a search for "sony lens" on fb marketplace, and it took about 2s to load the page. This is a very very optimized page, it got some results at the top within 500ms, which was probably enough to fill above the fold on mobile (and thus seem like it was finished). however the broader search to fill the results took about 2s. When I worked at eBay searches took 2-3s routinely if they weren't warm. Getting to 100ms for a lot of very important ecommerce pages, which are critical in terms of bounce rate sensitivity, is a real engineering challenge that millions of dollars are spent on. Imagine if eBay could get 3% lower bounce on their search pages, delivering that would make multiple careers.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#193

Most of the time, it's the network related stuff, requests that are slow. But with AI, devs nowadays are chasing the aesthetic vibe, cool animations, forward-backward video on the background relative to the scrolls... Which worsen the performance drastically just for a cool landing page. I mean that could be cool for landing page only but some people put all those animations in the product itself too, which is a pain…

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Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't they use ML to predict where I'm going to click, and pre-cache the predicted page whenever the predicted button doesn't mutate important state? Or skip the difficult ML and have some basic rule of thumb that pre-caches frequent button clicks, using a markov chain, and conditioned on those pages being low bandwidth to pre-load.

If we stored the edges (links) and nodes (pages) separately, rather than requiring you to blindly run a node's code just to discover what its edges might be, then you could skip the prediction and instead pre-cache the next hop for all edges just in case you follow one. You could even do this to two or three hops. This might seem wasteful, but if the web were content addressed instead of server addressed you could th…

>but if the web were content addressed instead of server addressed you could then be serving that cache to your municipality even after it became disconnected from the rest of the internet.

This is already possible without content addressing with CDNs. They can serve content from a local cache even when the host is disconnected from the internet.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#195
post #44

One of the biggest causes of slowness is just waiting for web requests. The fact that so much software is either online or built using the same stack even if it isn't, puts all that software in this blocked/waiting state constantly while using it. Anyone not in the US feels this even more since so much online is US hosted, 300ms for every little interaction adds up quick. If your software has the affordance of a wait…

I have a new laptop with a rtx 5090. Opening any GL context takes more than half a second. There's tons of things that can be optimized and are pretty far from web.

I assume you're running proprietary drivers? Because I've never experienced anything like that on mesa. Launching an app that opens a window with a gl or vk context is so fast on my almost 10 year old hardware that it's nearly imperceptible.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a new laptop with a rtx 5090. Opening any GL context takes more than half a second. There's tons of things that can be optimized and are pretty far from web.

We can only hope that the company building the hardware on which this new age of AI is based on soon starts "vibe-optimising" their own driver stack.

They don't want other companies to train on their IP and regurgitate it to random people.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#197
"LLMs are causing slow, bloated, code are going to eat crow once they re-write everything in super-optimized assembly."

This person doesn't understand how to make efficient code. I can write code in almost any language (with a couple of exceptions) that outperforms "super-optimized assembly". Writing efficient code isn't about the language, and often isn't about the best algorithms either (but sometimes it is). Its about optimizing memory and cache use. And that's orthogonal to anything the author is writing about. Also, LLMs are terrible at optimizing memory utilization. There is just too little training code that does it well and far too much that doesn't.

As proof, I'm can literally feel the web getting slower and I bet many others feel this as well.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#198
post #55

Here's this boiled down: > A stochastic search process with an executable optimization objective over space of programs S can only maintain or improve the objective This is superoptimization. We've known this since the 80s (Massalin, STOKE is more recent: https://github.com/StanfordPL/stoke ) The only novelty is that the proposer is now way better with LMs. Further, there's a large number of reasons for software writ…

> iykyk A story. I have a friend, who is - like me - interested in the CRDT / collaborative editing space. He asked ChatGPT to write him a CRDT. Then he grabbed every good CRDT implementation, and asked chatgpt to benchmark and optimise his CRDT, using tricks and techniques from existing hand-optimised CRDTs. He got massive performance gains by doing this - which is really interesting! I think it helped that he had a…

The refutation of your takeaway is autoresearch and similar. They can brute force novel optimizations (and generally achieve superhuman performance) when provided with an appropriate environment.

Of course that doesn't mean they have a human level mental model and associated novel ideas. Brute force can be effective but remains entirely unsatisfying from an academic perspective.

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#199
post #146

Next time you ask your AI of choice to build an app, please tell them to use plain language without frameworks at all and keep modules to a minimum (ie. node express, ejs and pg, nothing else) and you will see a huuuuge difference

> my preferred frameworks can’t possibly be slow and yours can’t possibly be fast

Re: There's no reason for software to be slow anymore

#200

What makes large things slow is not the individual pieces of code but the way the architecture dynamically reacts to changes in the load. Sync vs async calls, buffers, parallel vs sequential processing. This includes optimizations made: do we want to wait until the call returns or do we proceed anyway and deal with the negative response later? Most developers can’t coherently (ie, with math, graphs and figures) expla…

It can in general: https://chatgpt.com/share/6a893693-51a8-83ed-86f9-66a1f83cb1...

Whether it can apply it directly from the codebase, I’m unsure and depends on many factors.

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