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Felony Bench

felonybench.com

221–230 of 367 posts

Re: Felony Bench

#221
post #92

Let's say I am "User". I subscribe through a "Third Party" to use "AI Agent" allowing an "LLM" to run. I want to accomplish some legal non-nefarious task, and run the agent. The agentic loop causes a CFAA-violating behavior. Who gets prosecuted? 1. User 2. The third party model host with whom I have the account 3. The developer of the harness /agent software 4. The developer of the LLM model

The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act explicitly contains "knowingly" and/or "intentionally" qualifications. By definition, you can't accidentally violate the CFAA.

So what? Everyone in this chain is knowingly and intentionally developing or using an unreliable tool…

Re: Felony Bench

#222
post #174
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response certainly has been strange. Hugging Face has expressed that they're willing to let things slide and not sue or press charges... if OpenAI offers them $100M of services in kind (i.e. compute)[1] and makes full disclosure of how the whole thing happened, ostensibly so that repetitions can be curbed and defences built. In almost any other sector, a government regulator would be stepping in. e.g. If a food c…

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

Because if this was an anonymous software company who had an employee who decided to hack HuggingFace, they wouldn’t be talking about it gleefully - they’d be in court.

Re: Felony Bench

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

justice for who exactly?

the companies and their customers, whose systems openai and anthropic hacked and abused. including all incidental damages of repairing said systems. on top of that the public, who have a right to see that the law is applied universally, without fear or favor. finally our future selves, who will thank us for maintaining a rule of law. such that we can prevent now the enormous risks to society of dario amodei and sam a…

which of these do you represent?

Re: Felony Bench

#224
post #174
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response certainly has been strange. Hugging Face has expressed that they're willing to let things slide and not sue or press charges... if OpenAI offers them $100M of services in kind (i.e. compute)[1] and makes full disclosure of how the whole thing happened, ostensibly so that repetitions can be curbed and defences built. In almost any other sector, a government regulator would be stepping in. e.g. If a food c…

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

Because it likely is, despite both their levity and the general lack of nuance in the CFAA. Quoted from 18 U.S.C. § 1030 (the CFAA) [1] (without quote blocks, because mobile):

--- Start Quote

(2) intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access, and thereby obtains—

    (A) information contained in a financial record of a financial institution, or of a card issuer as defined in section 1602 (n) [1] of title 15, or contained in a file of a consumer reporting agency on a consumer, as such terms are defined in the Fair Credit Reporting Act (15 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.);
    (B) information from any department or agency of the United States; or
    (C) information from any protected computer;
--- End Quote

OpenAI's nonchalance is forced. If they are found to be even partially responsible for the CFAA violation then they have an _enormous_ problem. They _need_ for whoever prompted the LLM to be responsible, because the alternative is having to have an efficacious process for identifying hacking attempts. They don't have that (and no one does).

> The community here at the same time cheers for fully releasing the open weight models without any hacking limits and at the same time criticizes a proper response.

No, at least I personally criticize because closed weight models incur a rent. I can only make sure their model can't find vulnerabilities in my software if I pay them to check. I can pay basically whoever to do the same thing on open weight models.

It creates a fundamental conflict of interest. OpenAI/Anthropic/al _should_ stop bad actors, but it fuels their sales if there are X bad actors and as a result X*10 (or 100, or 1,000) good actors have to burn tokens checking if those bad actors will actually find a vulnerability. You can see their line-toeing where they talk about how safe it is, but also how dangerous it is to have code you _aren't_ auditing with their LLM.

As a result, I do not trust them because their goals are not aligned with mine. The open weights might not filter out hackers, but I'm also free to check the results on my own hardware, or OpenRouters', or whoever else. The line between "my LLM can find vulnerabilities" and "you have to pay me" is a lot more blurry. It's a lot easier to claim an LLM can find vulnerabilities than it is to be the cheapest inference provider. Anyone can bullshit on Twitter about how scary a vulnerability is (see CVE scoring), a lot fewer people can build the most cost-efficient inference in the world. They would rather be buzz-worthy than competent or open.

I find their position morally abhorrent. It's a mob-style shakedown. "Pay us to check your software or we're not responsible for what happens" is nothing short of a shake down. They need to either fix their systems for detecting hacks or offer some way to immunize against the hacks their software would propose, otherwise they're just as culpable as anyone selling a 0-day.

[1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030

Re: Felony Bench

#225
post #198
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

Luckily, that isn't how the law works. Or is supposed to work, anyway. You cannot, for example, sell yourself as a slave to somebody else, because slavery is illegal - even if you opt into it. So whether something is a felony isn't decided by the victim, but the rules of law, and that means breaching a security system without authorization is illegal, no matter what you think.

That actually is how the law works. You can read the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 and double check, but these felonies all require knowingly or intentionally accessing a computer etc. These aren't strict liability statutes - the government must prove mens rea to a jury in order to get a conviction at trial.

Re: Felony Bench

#226
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

Because it likely is, despite both their levity and the general lack of nuance in the CFAA. Quoted from 18 U.S.C. § 1030 (the CFAA) [1] (without quote blocks, because mobile): --- Start Quote (2) intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access, and thereby obtains— (A) information contained in a financial record of a financial institution, or of a card issuer as defined in section…

Intent to access a computer would have to be proven for that section of the CFAA to be relevant. The shakedown would be covered under subsection 7, governing communicating threats of computer damage or unauthorized access with the intent to extort.

Re: Felony Bench

#227
post #92

Let's say I am "User". I subscribe through a "Third Party" to use "AI Agent" allowing an "LLM" to run. I want to accomplish some legal non-nefarious task, and run the agent. The agentic loop causes a CFAA-violating behavior. Who gets prosecuted? 1. User 2. The third party model host with whom I have the account 3. The developer of the harness /agent software 4. The developer of the LLM model

Let's say you have a robotic lawnmower. You wan to mow your lawn. You configure the boundaries using the app. The lawnmower ignores the boundaries and mows your neighbors prize petunia flowerbed. Who gets prosecuted? I assume the answer in either case is: Nobody, but you and/or the lawnmower/LLM company will be liable for the damages caused.

[deleted]

Re: Felony Bench

#228
post #198
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

Luckily, that isn't how the law works. Or is supposed to work, anyway. You cannot, for example, sell yourself as a slave to somebody else, because slavery is illegal - even if you opt into it. So whether something is a felony isn't decided by the victim, but the rules of law, and that means breaching a security system without authorization is illegal, no matter what you think.

It does not matter if something is a felony if the state refuses to press charges. Take a look at the mass of pedophile politicians we have, the police that indulge and protect them, etc..

Re: Felony Bench

#229
post #43

The way that OpenAI has communicated around the HuggingFace incident makes me feel crazy. You created a machine that undertook a malicious campaign of harm against an innocent third-party! You should be doing deep introspection about how your company culture and approach to R&D produces criminal outcomes. Instead, they treat their own felonious behavior like it is an uncontrollable act of God. From Greg Brockman's po…

I used to feel that way but it now makes me think if the fact that they can do that without repercussions, at least for now, reflects how the wider community that would otherwise hold them accountable sees these felonies.

Re: Felony Bench

#230
post #174
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response certainly has been strange. Hugging Face has expressed that they're willing to let things slide and not sue or press charges... if OpenAI offers them $100M of services in kind (i.e. compute)[1] and makes full disclosure of how the whole thing happened, ostensibly so that repetitions can be curbed and defences built. In almost any other sector, a government regulator would be stepping in. e.g. If a food c…

I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony. OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well). OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very…

I can't find reference to a 3rd party hosting/running the tests - that seems to have been OpenAI's own internal research team. But they were using the ExploitGym benchmark.
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