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AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

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Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#601

Post by pessimizer »

danparsonson wrote: post #424
1970-01-01 wrote: post #394

Again, rare and valuable are not the same thing. A $2 bill is not as valuable as you think it is, unless you think it is $2.

Value is entirely in the eye of the beholder - money itself only has value because enough of us agree that it does.

No, it has value because it is the only means that are absolutely accepted to pay taxes and most legal judgements (i.e. obligations to the state that issued that currency.) If you don't have dollars and you need to pay US taxes, you have got to get some or you will go to jail.

It's not bitcoin.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#602

Post by jdiff »

inigyou wrote: post #466
jdiff wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling it is not allowed. The inability to sell it does not require its destruction.

But copyright law does, because otherwise you have two copies. This isn't theoretical, AI companies have finished lawsuits about this and this was the ruling.

The ruling was that what they did was within the law, not required by law in every detail. They cannot resell the copies. I saw nothing in that ruling that required their destruction, because it is not required.

A person can digitize their own books without destroying the original. So can Anthropic. They are choosing to destroy the books for easier scanning and trying to palm off the blame for it.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#603

Post by mzhaase »

CamelCaseName wrote: post #319

You ask "Why destroy physical books?" I ask "Why save physical books?" If they are truly rare, then they are likely not valuable, otherwise there would be more copies or their contents could be found elsewhere. Owning and storing physical books is not free, there is a real cost. Even owning and storing the scans is not free, especially when IP rights and challenges get involved, since a scanned book with no distribut…

What you personally find important is not what everyone else finds important or inspiring. Destroying something takes it away from every single future human being.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#604

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

ezfe wrote: post #2

I dislike these AI companies but let's be clear here: the copyright holders are the ones locking these books up. If they don't want to print more copies, then they could release the copyright on them. Instead, they enforce the copyright and force AI companies to shred books they want to ingest. edit: Also, an AI company would only ever care to purchase, scan, destroy a book once. Presumably many books have more than…

Not the copyright holders, "we the people": Copyright is an artificial legal construct that was repeatedly ratcheted up over and over again.

Unfortunately 50 years after the death of the author (or 50 years after publication for corporate owned works) has been locked in as a minimum term through international treaties, so it'll be somewhat hard to lower it beyond that, but many countries (including the US) enforce much longer terms, so that would be a first lever that could be applied quickly.

Maybe countries could could also establish an exception for out of print books offered to the public for free, or a general "library exemption" for public archives after a certain number of years?

I'm sure one of the AI companies would be willing to host a LibGen style library as a PR measure if legally allowed (with sign up required for rate limiting and as an extra benefit for the company to get daily active users).

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#605

Post by aeon_ai »

This is only because this is a legal right granted as part of the purchase of copyrighted material, and because we have tried to stop AI companies from doing this with purely digital copies.

The insanity of attempting to prevent AI learning (which is a direct consequence of the nature of observable information) because of the myth of intellectual property is the main driver of this type of behavior.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#606

Post by tene80i »

TFNA wrote: post #266
tene80i wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of written works aren’t “information” but rather art. Most piracy is just about people preferring not to pay for novels, TV and film.

Indeed, art. And it is a pretty common position that all people should have access to art and culture. Add up the cost of buying the DVD/Blu-Ray releases for the 1500 or so films that make up the canon of cinema. That's a sum of money daunting even for people in developed countries, let alone most of the world. Piracy is going to be the realistic solution. (And before you say "Use the library", you know well-stocked…

If you're saying "piracy is justified in those parts of the world where access to any art or culture is prohibitively expensive", then that's a pretty defensible position, not unlike "It's ok to steal bread if you are starving".

But that's not what many people defending piracy are doing. Many of them do indeed have great libraries nearby, and art and culture on demand at prices they happily spend having food delivered to their house.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#607

Post by ionwake »

joshstrange wrote: post #568
ionwake wrote: post #502

I mean guys i get it, you have a bad day just once and you want to rewrite history, we all do, but geez... I guess just I feel destroying books should be classed as unethical. if i was ruler I think id ban it.

Yes, let's begin with the trials for all the librarians who have destroyed/trashed books over the year! Nevermind that they do that because those books aren't being borrowed and no one wants to buy them. Destroying books to destroy knowledge is bad, destroying books because no one wants them or there are ample copies, _especially_ when those books go on to live forever as a digital copy, is a completely different sto…

bro if people on HN of all places are concerned of physical media being destroyed boggles ur mind then u need to read more about the damage caused to society by prior happenings.

I wasn't even making an unusual or particularly strong statement

Im going to try and be patient and explain my position. I just feel that actions that are destructive should always be seen through a lens of suspicion.

IE, lets destroy this wood to reduce the chance of wildfires. Ok, well why that wood? we sure there arent other interests at play? Ie a carpark wanting to be built by a local authority?

As you become older and witness large acts occur due to unclear scheming, you start to become sensitive towards destructive acts, feeling there should be a lens cast over it.

Maybe Im just paranoid.

Sure I can understand there must be tons of books that are not needed, but books, are object that include native function that IN the right context becomes priceless and hence should be treated with a degree of concern.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#608

Post by theartfuldodger »

I collect old books. It's not common to buy books at all yet to buy old books. Library sales as big as concerts exist, little book libraries everywhere but the used book stores are constantly closing.

I wish people cared 25 years ago. Unwanted books in boxes are everywhere. Its a false hysteria. You can still get any book you want, digitizing is the best bet for more readership.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#609

Post by jdiff »

flatline wrote: post #540
jdiff wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling it is not allowed. The inability to sell it does not require its destruction.

Why would a company keep the hard-copy around at the risk of it being inadvertently given away, resold, etc.? It's a huge outstanding liability given that the illegal copying of works -- the other part of that case -- is what they settled out of court for some huge amount of money. Destruction is the only thing that makes sense. I'm old enough to have been around when DCMA legislation was under discussion. Many peopl…

I agree fully that it makes logistical sense. But it is not a legal requirement, and they should not be permitted to use that as an excuse to wash their hands of their own decisions.

Re: AI companies destroy physical books – let's scan rare books before it's too late

#610

Post by pfdietz »

himinlomax wrote: post #426
ziyadb wrote: post #299

I was surprised to read that Anthropic (and probably other data / model companies) are doing this and it's extremely disappointing, as working towards the benefit of humanity is not an exclusive right / domain of theirs but rather, is a shared responsibility and mission carried by all of humanity itself as a collective responsibility. Thus, the preservation of this knowledge, its availability, and accessibility are t…

They're not destroying rare manuscripts or incunables. They're destroying one (1) copy of a mass-produced item for each AI company. Public libraries destroy millions more yearly as a matter of routine. This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic, along with the water use nonsense, and similar with the soviet-aligned moral panic that destroyed the civil nuclear industry 40 years ago.

Nuclear killed itself (vast cost overruns); there was no need for hallucinated foreign influences.

But I understand blaming your energy waifu for its own failure is unacceptable for nuclear bros.

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