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Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

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321–330 of 427 posts

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it applied equally to everyone, then more people would be outraged as it affected them. In order to do this you need to have laws that are designed to be reasonable for people to actually follow instead of laws that are designed to allow prosecutors to find a violation whenever they want to. Actually enforcing them would create pressure to do that, but it would also create pressure to go back to selective enforc…

> If you can show that someone else was doing the same thing without being charged then the prosecution either has to charge them too or that law is struck down I’ve often thought this about laws involving speed limits. When 95% of the people driving in a major downtown area are technically breaking the law, what is the purpose of the law but to target whoever you like then? Either enforce it unilaterally or come up…

Going after every possible case would be staggeringly expensive for marginal gain, the cost society would massively exceed the benefits. Yes the system as it is that relies on discretion, but there’s always discretion involved, and we rely on separation of powers, public pressure, etc to act to try and correct excesses. Of course that is not guaranteed to work, and won’t work perfectly, but no system will. Societies are dynamic systems.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#322
98% of the commenters here have no idea what Swartz was actually charged with, or what he actually did. Here are a couple of articles that cover this from an expert in the relevant areas of law [1] [2].

Also, due to the very stupid way the DoJ calculates potential sentences in their press releases, almost everyone thinks defendants are facing much more prison time than they actually have any remotely realistic chance of receiving. Here's an article on that [3].

Briefly, if some hypothetical criminal committed some specific crime in the worst way possible, hitting many of the checkmarks that make it worse (such underage victim, victim is a law or government official or relative of one, victim was restrained, hate crime, terrorism, organized crime was involved, they were a manager or supervisor in that organized crime, they abuse a position of trust, they used a minor to help with the crime, they used threats to impede the investigation, they committed reckless endangerment while fleeing arrest, and the crime was committed while they were out on bond or bail from another federal crime) and could get a sentence of N years then N years is what the DoJ states in the press release.

Doesn't matter that the actual person being charged has none of those, or that they have some of the circumstances that can lower sentences (such as acceptance of responsibility, only minor involvement, helped investigating or prosecuting another person, diminished capacity, they self reported their crime before authorities discover it, they were coerced into participating, and some more) and there's basically no chance they will get anything more than maybe a few months of parole...it is going to say N years in the press releases.

Actually, it might even say some multiple of N, because they often charge the person with multiple things based on the same underlying harm. For example if you kill one person that might be first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter.

They might charge you with all of those (which does make sense--they are going to try to prove all the elements of first degree murder, but if they fail to prove of them they might still prove the elements of one of the others). If the jury comes back and convicts on several of them all but the most severe one will be used for sentencing. But the DoJ press release will probable make it sounds like you could serve N years for each of them.

It's completely ridiculous. They have the details of what they are charging the person with. They know about all those factors that increase or decrease sentences. They could do the math and give a realistic sentence in the press release.

[1] https://volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/

[2] https://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-a...

[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20130211030902/https://www.popeh...

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#323
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same mechanism is used to keep poor white Americans voting Republican: even if they're poor, they see themselves as the white ruling class over black and Hispanic people, despite the fact that they themselves are kept poor by the real ruling class.

You're missing the symmetry. The two party system is a false dichotomy. The enemy is not the other party, it's the system that causes there to be only two alternatives that are both captured by mostly the same interests. Each party convinces half the population that the other is trying to destroy them so that their votes cancel out. And then Marx calls this a criticism of "capitalism" even though it's fundamentally a…

The two party system is absolutely part of the problem, but there's also definitely the culture war being waged to distract people from the class war that's being waged against them. But the two-party system definitely enables that, making it easier to win by discrediting the other, because there only is one other.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#324
post #206
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How would it help the world for Aaron Swartz to download 3.5 million research and primary source PDFs Knowledge is power.

So, pay for access, or go to your local library, or browse the internet, or get free access in a similar way that Aaron Swartz did? Knowledge often requires funding to be created in the first place.

Why does every research team and lab use SciHub and/or Library Genesis?

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#325
post #241
post #73

I recently came to the conclusion that it was never about copyright. It's about corporate control, about punishing contempt for business model. Aaron Swartz was punished because he disrespected a business model. All the kids sued by the MAFIAA were punished because they disrespected a business model. Copyright was merely the mechanism to make it stick. But AI companies and Meta can disrespect copyright all they want,…

What do you think copyright is in service of? It doesn’t exist for its own sake.

The justification is that it's supposed to protect the individual creative from more powerful publishers just taking and copying their stuff. In practice, it seems to mostly protect the interests of the most powerful party.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or should we distribute harm from all speeders (accidents, injuries and deaths) to everyone speeding? Yes, that one. Increasing everyone's risk is harm, sorry if I wasn't clear about that part. > But does a fixed fee speeding ticket disincentivise behaviour that is known to cause harm statistically? The line of thought here is: Does it matter? If the average speeder pays $2 of fines per $1 of harm, it's a net posit…

I am pretty sure speeding ticket fines have never been established based on economic or emotional harm (how much does 200 lives lost cost? is it their accumulated net worth? expected earnings through what would have been left of their careers? how about lost limbs, emotional damage etc? and how can you even be sure how much has speeding and not something else mainly contributed to the harm)

> I am pretty sure speeding ticket fines have never been established based on economic or emotional harm

Probably not, but we can look at the averages anyway.

> how much does 200 lives lost cost? is it their accumulated net worth? expected earnings through what would have been left of their careers? how about lost limbs, emotional damage etc?

200 statistical lives are worth about 2 billion dollars. That question has an easy to look up expert answer, and you don't worry about the details of each case.

> how can you even be sure how much has speeding and not something else mainly contributed to the harm

We have some useful numbers on the impact of speeding, and for something like this assume the worst plausible impact.

Edit: If there's around 1 death per hundred million vehicle miles and it's worth ten million dollars, that's ten cents of death per mile. If a quarter of deaths have speeding as a factor and we exaggerate that to 100% blame, that's 2.5 cents per mile divided by how rare speeding is. If we guess 15% of people are speeding at any moment, that's 17 cents of damage per mile. To pay double they'd need a $200 ticket every 600 miles of speeding.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#327

I don't like talking about this, but first hand knowledge is rarer by the day, and there are entire organizations profiting off this mythology. It's pissing me off. Aaron is not a data point to build stupid metaphors around. He was a bright and broken child. Aaron attracted influential and creepy people and was ill-equipped to handle it. He was also working through a period of sexual awakening while being used by old…

[flagged]

This really isn’t the tone you should adopt on this forum

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#328
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just created a large, TBTF corp's veto. Pass a law or have a law passed a corp TBTF doesn't want? Break it and force the Government's hand to strike it down.

TBTF is not a thing. It's all in your mind. Evergrande and Country Garden would've been classified TBTF in the minds of many USians, yet they failed. The dead comment below by AnthonyMouse already pointed out that even in your scenario there's no difference with the status quo anyway. It's insane that it's dead and reeks of astroturfing, as nothing about it is worth flagging. > Isn't that the other way around? The la…

Off topic:

The dead comment below by AnthonyMouse already pointed out that even in your scenario there's no difference with the status quo anyway. It's insane that it's dead and reeks of astroturfing, as nothing about it is worth flagging.

If you see such a comment, you can vouch for it (small menu point next to flag) and revive it. I did that now because I agree with your assessment - of late I do this very often because even comments which quote articles/laws etc. verbatim and with a link are flagged/voted to death.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#329
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT was another affected party, who reached out to the government for help.

Please sir, we lost entire megabytes of bandwidth as someone accessed free resources on the internet, we are such an aggreieved party.

Amusing, but a long string of rogue cyber intrusions coupled with Jstor blocking MIT altogether a few times isn’t something to ignore. Hard to imagine just ignoring the risks and potential of that unknown.

MIT and Jstor had a bunch of incident response going on, and it isn’t a leap to consider Jstor would cut them off for good if the situation went unresolved.

Re: Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for scraping, while Meta does it without consequence

#330
This is really a problem with companies vs. individuals breaking laws in general. There is a perverse incentive for prosecutors to not go after companies unless they have an airtight case because a company will be able to afford to defend themselves with an army of lawyers and even if they cannot win they will drag out the case. Meanwhile individuals can be pressured into accepting a plea deal with much flimsier evidence because the potential consequences can be life altering.
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