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Could AIs Become Conscious?

economist.com

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Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#81

Post by angoragoats »

qgin wrote: post #18

We pretty famously can't prove that humans are conscious. I'd hold off from making strong statements that AI can't become conscious.

> We pretty famously can't prove that humans are conscious

While I wouldn't call this statement flat-out wrong, I think it's unclear and possibly conflates multiple concepts that exist in different domains:

1) The hard problem of consciousness, which is a philosophical problem that asks "why do we have subjective experiences at all?"

2) Solipsism or hard solipsism, which is another philosophical concept that asserts that only one's own mind is certain to exist and there is no way to prove that any other minds besides one's own aren't just a figment of one's imagination.

3) The science of consciousness, which is the scientific study of how and why consciousness arises in the brain.

The first two are concepts existing in philosophy, while the third is in the domain of science. We absolutely can scientifically show that consciousness is a product of the brain of humans and that one's consciousness can be altered by making modifications to the brain (e.g. via physical or chemical means).

So your statement is at least unclear. Depending on what you mean by "prove," and whether you're speaking about philosophy or empirical/scientific evidence, it may also be incorrect.

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#82

Post by euroderf »

seanw444 wrote: post #28

I know this probably sounds ridiculous to this demographic, but I'm not quick to dismiss the possibility that we are antennas (best comparison I can make) for a substance/field we aren't yet aware of. Or something along those lines. Maybe consciousness isn't in the mind per se. The mere fact that general/special relativity and quantum mechanics are both correct in their respective domains, yet mutually contradictory,…

I suspect that the nervous system acts as a distributed antenna for "picking up" other antennas.

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#86

Post by karunamurti »

wotamess wrote: post #76
qgin wrote: post #18

We pretty famously can't prove that humans are conscious. I'd hold off from making strong statements that AI can't become conscious.

This misunderstands the "hard problem" of consciousness which for brevity's sake I will just pose as the question "why does the universe exist at all?" Sure, we don't know that answer. Probably cannot without an impossible machine that can observe all states of all particles and matter throughout all of time space. Occam's Razor allows for a simple, good enough definition to satisfy day to day concerns on Earth; cons…

We simulate biological neurons digitally. Give them enough resources to grow, give basic instructions to do feedback loop and to improve. Maybe even suggest the AI to design mechanical vessel for AI.

That consciousness definition will get blurry fast if we don't know what's going on under the hood.

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#87

Post by wotamess »

karunamurti wrote: post #86
wotamess wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misunderstands the "hard problem" of consciousness which for brevity's sake I will just pose as the question "why does the universe exist at all?" Sure, we don't know that answer. Probably cannot without an impossible machine that can observe all states of all particles and matter throughout all of time space. Occam's Razor allows for a simple, good enough definition to satisfy day to day concerns on Earth; cons…

We simulate biological neurons digitally. Give them enough resources to grow, give basic instructions to do feedback loop and to improve. Maybe even suggest the AI to design mechanical vessel for AI. That consciousness definition will get blurry fast if we don't know what's going on under the hood.

[dead]

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#88

Post by fyredge »

I will stand by my view that AI cannot be "conscious" until model.train() and model.eval() is combined into one. Going further, it will only manifest when the underlying model, not just the weights, but the layers and the nodes and their configurations are allowed to change throughout it's life cycle, not in the service of a predetermined output, but for the sake of its own survival. But alas, such a model will have none of the benefits of non-linear fitting of input to output and is not immediately beneficial to their sponsors.

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#89

Post by greyishblu »

karunamurti wrote: post #86
wotamess wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misunderstands the "hard problem" of consciousness which for brevity's sake I will just pose as the question "why does the universe exist at all?" Sure, we don't know that answer. Probably cannot without an impossible machine that can observe all states of all particles and matter throughout all of time space. Occam's Razor allows for a simple, good enough definition to satisfy day to day concerns on Earth; cons…

We simulate biological neurons digitally. Give them enough resources to grow, give basic instructions to do feedback loop and to improve. Maybe even suggest the AI to design mechanical vessel for AI. That consciousness definition will get blurry fast if we don't know what's going on under the hood.

Simulation is not empirical. You cannot swap substrates; brain for computer; and claim that's how a brain, and thus human consciousness works. That would be making a claim about electromagnetism in a computer not human consciousness.

Every effort to look under the hood will get blurry. Because we cannot confirm past and future states on long timescales either direction we end up with Gödel's incompleteness; lack of empirical observation of all past and future information means we cannot prove all statements are true.

Without observation of all particles ever (impossible) there is never resolving "under the hood". So a seemingly superficial daily life description like a feedback loop of sensory input and mechanical response

Re: Could AIs Become Conscious?

#90

Post by thrance »

ews wrote: post #33
seanw444 wrote: post #28

I know this probably sounds ridiculous to this demographic, but I'm not quick to dismiss the possibility that we are antennas (best comparison I can make) for a substance/field we aren't yet aware of. Or something along those lines. Maybe consciousness isn't in the mind per se. The mere fact that general/special relativity and quantum mechanics are both correct in their respective domains, yet mutually contradictory,…

The antenna theory is intriguing but always bugged me. Where do we get that idea that consciousness lives outside the body/brain? Where did it come from?

That's just another name for dualism, wikipedia has a history section about it, if you're interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism

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