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Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

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Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#101
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's cyclical. Punk in the early 80s was a reaction to the excesses of 70s superbands (e.g. Johnny Rotten's "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt). Then things built up again to "monsters of rock" arena tours, The Spice Girls, and hair bands before getting torn down again by the likes of Nirvana. (Hell, rock and roll was born as an anti-establishment thing in the 1950s) Maybe we're just due for another one of the infle…

Ok, the Spice Girls were formed 1994, the same year Kurt Cobain died, but Take That and lots of other boy/girl bands and other extremely commercial pop acts were contemporary with Nirvana and the whole grunge phenomenon. So it's not cyclical, it's actually two sides of the same medal. There are to this day still lots of bands that hold their "indie ethos" high, the only thing different in the 1990s was that some of t…

> There are to this day still lots of bands that hold their "indie ethos" high, the only thing different in the 1990s was that some of those indie/alternative bands were actually successful enough to be considered (shudder) mainstream...

The late 80s to early 2000s was a distribution sweet-spot for groups like that.

Early MTV didn't always line up with what mainstream radio played, but gave more new artists opportunities. This continued up at least through Eminem getting his breakout in that way - I wouldn't say he shunned fame, but until breaking through with a music video there the radio machine wasn't giving him that fame. Tapes, and later CD burners, also massively accelerated word-of-mouth for stuff that wasn't the immediate first choice for top-40 format radio stations because it let more people share more things. Then you had the internet/napster era supercharge that. "It Wasn't Me" by Shaggy became a huge hit because a local DJ in Hawaii found it on Napster and started playing it.

Now we've crossed a tipping point where there's more indie stuff available than ever, but also so much personalized listening where it's getting harder again to get Nirvana-level famous outside of the system. But a Chappel Roan still fits the bill pretty well. Did you have lesbian dance-pop with 80s camp on your bingo card for massive mainstream popularity a few years ago?

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overstating the uniqueness of Cobain's "brand" and underestimating the size of the anti-corporate movement in the popular culture of the 1990s. First, it wasnt really Cobain per se—Nirvana were huge for a few years, but Cobain really only became a household name in death. More importantly the rejection of corporate influence and "mainstream" art was the guiding ethos of that whole genre, and eventually…

This reminds me a lot of the tension the I felt when I was first coming of age as a young adult in the late 00s. At that point, it wasn't grunge, it was hipsters. But I always felt like: How can hipsters be hip and counterculture and a movement that is big deal culturally at the same time? As soon as a "counterculture" becomes a mainstream movement, it's no longer a counterculture... So which is it? Was Cobain a big…

IMO the tension is a feature, not a bug. We (humans) put far too much emphasis on the current state (is Cobain a mainstream success or counter culture hero?). We need to focus on the change we're observing; Cobain was an alternative that we watched catch on and take over everyone with a pair of Doc Marten boots regardless if they were a punk or a sophmore at Duke. The tension exists in the change we are living within, and it does not move at a steady, universal state. I liken trying to decide "What is this?" to trying to stand still in a raging river. It doesn't really matter as the current churns past, with logs zipping along and rocky outcrops threatening. The "movement" either consumes itself (ex: Pop Music), is terminated prematurely (like Cobain) or consciously never lets itsef happen (ex: Nofx)

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me a lot of the tension the I felt when I was first coming of age as a young adult in the late 00s. At that point, it wasn't grunge, it was hipsters. But I always felt like: How can hipsters be hip and counterculture and a movement that is big deal culturally at the same time? As soon as a "counterculture" becomes a mainstream movement, it's no longer a counterculture... So which is it? Was Cobain a big…

> So which is it? Was Cobain a big deal in the mainstream, or was he countercultural? I don't think you can have it both ways. But why not? Result (huge sales, mainstream popularity) and process (not aiming at that goal, or even resenting ending up there) are entirely decoupled because the result is the sum of actions done by everyone else and only the process is the action of the person involved. To be a big deal in…

All punks - and quite a few non punks - are aware of NOFX. They refused to play the game yet had a 40+ year career and even bigger impact on punk music since the late 80's.

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#104
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a degree that was a sentiment, for sure. But many of us just like good music no matter what shape and size it comes in. Some of us even like bad music. I listen to a lot of bad music. I make a lot of bad music, too. But I'm having fun and I like to see other people have fun and even make money doing it. When I was 5 I had every Backstreet Boys CD. I had Backstreet Boys action figures from Burger King. I love the S…

If you had every Backstreet Boys CD when you were 5, you are probably not a reliable narrator of the zeitgeist of Michael Jackson in the early 1980s. :)

Did I get something wrong?

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#105
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the existence of individual anecdotes, I'm talking broadly as a culture because this is a comment section for a blog post about culture. I was an adult working in the music industry in the 1990s. By and large if you were part of the indie music scene it was incredibly common to consider anything in mainstream commercial music "not cool." Boy bands were reviled for it, and people felt strongly ab…

We're not talking about Steve Albini, Ian MacKaye, or even Bob Mould. We're comparing Pearl Jam to Nirvana --- artists on Epic and Geffen. If you knew who SST Records was, you believed everyone was a sellout, including everyone on Touch And Go and Dischord.

Yeah, and I completely believe in the punk rock DIY ethos and independent artistic control from start to finish. I don't like big labels and I don't like to support them because they aren't supporting artists. All of these are important conversations to have when discussing what "sell out" really means. But much of the music is still good, that's my point. I can articulate the issues with the music industry while still enjoying the fruits of human creativity.

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#106
>Saying that some art is better than other art started sounding too much like saying that some people are better than other people.

I think this is a more important line than the author even appreciates. It's complex, but it's easy to see that people have generally leveraged the label of "art" is a defense against criticism, and it usually takes this form.

If someone likes to listen to whatever clearly "trashy" pop music is famous at the moment, they have learned that they don't need to feel shame for doing so- all they have to do is call it art and all of a sudden they're absolved of all the negative connotations associated with the consumerist aspects of that music.

Of course, it's not hard to recognize that if you're willing to call anything made by a person "art," then the concept of "art" will have lost all meaning. Sure, the newest Marvel movie was engineered by a huge team of professionals who designed it to generate as much profit as possible, but there's a human involved who likely put some creative effort into the project, therefore it is art and it is absolved of any criticism that doesn't treat it as such.

>I think this is why we now tolerate such blatant greed among famous people: we think we have a chance of becoming one of them. We once saw ourselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires; now we see ourselves as temporarily unknown celebrities.

I don't buy this exactly. I think it's more like: people associate their being so personally with celebrities that they feel as though they're already almost famous themselves just by being their fan. It's the "parasocial" dynamic that people have been recognizing more and more.

I think this does end up cropping up in the form of leveraging fandom to make yourself a celebrity (e.g., the fans that appear the most obsessed are the same ones who can be known for being the fans which are the most obsessed), but I don't think that is the core motivation.

>If we want this to stop, the solution is simple: we have to stop eating Lady Gaga’s Oreos. We have to stop pretending that celebrities are just like us, and that their success is our success. We have to redraw the line between art and entertainment, and more importantly, we have to redraw the line between art and advertisement.

This is the "fun" part of all of this.

If "we" need to do something to stop this, then "we" are fucked. People are in way too deep at this point to turn this around anytime soon in any meaningful way.

The reality is that "you" need to do what is best for "you" and to recognize that the huge swaths of the population who are addicted to consumerism on this level should be treated similarly to how we treat people addicted to drugs or gambling: have pity, try to help them help themselves, but ultimately don't let them drag you down with them.

This might seem overly dramatic, but this dynamic does come with a huge cost: literally money. If you're spending your money on overpriced bullshit, then you're no longer able to spend or invest that money on things that can have a much greater ROI (where that return may be in the form of money, or it could be more meaningful experiences, things that make you genuinely happy, etc.). Just the same, all of these products detract from your capacity to experience in general. When you're spending any amount of your capacity thinking about, consuming, discussing, etc., Lady Gaga's Oreos, then that as capacity not spent on things that matter much more.

The worst part is that this isn't limited to people irrationally consuming celebrity endorsed products. Right now, you're reading my comment about some dumb post on a dumb website where my point doesn't matter. You're consuming this instead of spending your time being productive. Embarrassingly, I've sunk way more time into this comment than you have reading it, so I'm not any better off. But I like to think I'm getting something more meaningful out of this than just mindlessly consuming products made for the lowest common denominator (even if it is just marginal), so at least I can feel a bit superior in that regard.

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#108

I actually don't think we should expect artists to be something bigger or more than their art. He is right that the fix needs to be consumer driven, but I think it just needs to be that we care a lot less about celebrities of all kinds outside of whatever it is that made them famous. We shouldn't be arguing about whether whatever thing an artist or sports star did or said that wasn't related to their art and/or sport…

Well, you are for sure right that the root of the problem is celebrity itself, but I do wonder if that's really unfixable. Are there cultures that celebrate celebrity less than others, I wonder?

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#109
post #75

I was in Vegas a few years back with friends. While walking the strip, notice this massive throng of kids all around us. I learned they were in town for the BTS concert. I noticed this young girl, no older than 20, wearing a Pink Floyd "Dark side of the Moon" t-shirt, I asked her what she thought of the band. To my abject dissatisfaction she responded "I bought the T-shirt because it looked cool". In that moment I a…

The big tongue? Yea, people do enjoy pop art.

The big tongue is a Rolling Stones thing and was used inside the fold of their Sticky Fingers album (the outer cover for which was an Andy Warhol photograph that seems primarily focused on a gentleman's sausage and/or the tight pants that constrain it; a working zipper was an included part of this published work).

Pink Floyd's popular Dark Side of the Moon artwork, meanwhile, involves an illustration of a prism splitting a beam of white light into a rainbow.

Re: Stop eating Lady Gaga's Oreos

#110

Stop eating oreos because they changed the formula, the filling can now be described as white paste product, and they want $4.99 for the "family" size now. I know this isn't what the article is about, but I'm sad by what Oreos have become.

Nostalgic for lard?

Perhaps, but: Lard hasn't been a part an Oreo cookie for ~30 years.

(Anyone want to talk about OS/2 Warp like that's still a current event?)

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