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The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

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Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#111

Post by jasode »

saghm wrote: post #108
jasode wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand what open source has to do with this. People being able to see your source code doesn't somehow prevent you from changing it however you want. Yes, they can voice their opinion on it, but you can also just ignore it. Deep link to Chris Lattner interview where he says he learned lessons from Swift being rapidly released as open source meant that early design decisions that were suboptimal caused qu…

That doesn't clarify anything at all to me at least. If the goal was to avoid people depending on it before it was ready, why had I been hearing about it for so long before this? Something being marketed is not consistent with a concern to avoid having people rely on it and voice their opinions.

>to avoid people depending on it before it was ready, why had I been hearing about it for so long before this?

There's always been a history of various projects in beta/preview pre-1.0 versions that nevertheless don't wait for the official 1.0 release to generate buzz, attract mindshare, evangelize, etc. Typescript and Rust language did that. And today, Zig is still pre-1.0 and yet has similar active "marketing" via blogs, HN posts, opinion pieces, etc.

The point of the deep link is to show that for Swift, Chris did actually try your suggested idea of just releasing the early version and fix whatever mistakes are in it out in the open regardless of criticism. He didn't like how the that stressed out the team.

Yes, you advised "just ignore it" but he's human and it seems reasonable to accept his answer at face value that he didn't want to redo that stressful timeline all over again for Mojo. But for some reason, his answer is unacceptable to you and prefer to think the delayed open sourcing Mojo is caused by some other hidden agenda.

I think it's as simple as comparing the the community dynamics of 2 different timelines:

- stressful to deal with angry people : iterate and fix language mistakes in 1.0 --> 2.0 --> 4.0

- calmer because of managed expectations : iterate in alpha/beta/preview 0.x --> 0.x+1 --> 1.0

Things can still break in beta .... but then again, that's the expectation around pre-1.0 versions.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#112

Post by LoganDark »

saghm wrote: post #109
LoganDark wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you claiming that if Mojo was open source earlier, everyone would still be using the old versions for a long time? No, just saying it's happened before and it doesn't seem unreasonable to be wary of it.

Okay, but by that logic, if I can point to one instance of something suboptimal happening due to software being closed source, then it's reasonable to be wary of that too. I don't see how this is a plausible justification for keeping something closed source in the absence of taking into account the likelihood of something similar happening here, and for the reasons I laid out previously, I think it's borderline absur…

People choose what to worry about. You can say it's unfair because they could've worried about a different set of things, but at the end of the day it's their choice.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#113

Post by saghm »

jasode wrote: post #111
saghm wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't clarify anything at all to me at least. If the goal was to avoid people depending on it before it was ready, why had I been hearing about it for so long before this? Something being marketed is not consistent with a concern to avoid having people rely on it and voice their opinions.

>to avoid people depending on it before it was ready, why had I been hearing about it for so long before this? There's always been a history of various projects in beta/preview pre-1.0 versions that nevertheless don't wait for the official 1.0 release to generate buzz, attract mindshare, evangelize, etc. Typescript and Rust language did that. And today, Zig is still pre-1.0 and yet has similar active "marketing" via…

> Zig is still pre-1.0 and yet has similar active "marketing" via blogs, HN posts, opinion pieces, etc.

Yes, and it's open source, and more to the point, it's because the developers do genuinely seem to want feedback and interaction with the community. That's ostensibly the entire point of having public release announcements, which Mojo has had before 1.0.

> The point of the deep link is to show that for Swift, Chris did actually try your suggested idea of just releasing the early version and fix whatever mistakes are in it out in the open regardless of criticism. He didn't like how the that stressed out the team.

That does not seem accurate in terms of what I'm asking about here; if I'm reading the history right, Swift was not open source until version 2.2.

It's still not clear to me how any what you have said addresses what I'm asking: how does being closed source solve the problem that's cited as the reason for it being closed for so long, and why wouldn't not marketing/releasing the language at all be the actual solution to those sort of problems?

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#114

Post by geodel »

kibwen wrote: post #98
geodel wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think point was if they had gotten some fundamental things right from beginning they would not have to go through this 4.0 -> 5.0 breakage mess. > Rust was open-sourced from the outset, years before even its 0.1 release in 2012, which then allowed it to explore its design space in the hands of real users improving their own language without having to spend five years One can keep pounding on this but endless d…

> IMO it could a meme "What would Rust people do?" when deciding what should not be done You betray your own ignorance here. Rust became massively successful despite having no corporate mandate or Big Tech progenitor, precisely because it listened to its users and empowered them to participate in the language design and development process. Trying to feebly gesture in the direction of Rust's async support doubly betr…

> Please don't bother speaking on Rust's history or development process again, to spare us your tiresome and consistent ignorance.

Well, one can always head back to their echo chamber to avoid hurt feelings, instead of telling others to not speak their mind.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#115

Post by saghm »

LoganDark wrote: post #112
saghm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but by that logic, if I can point to one instance of something suboptimal happening due to software being closed source, then it's reasonable to be wary of that too. I don't see how this is a plausible justification for keeping something closed source in the absence of taking into account the likelihood of something similar happening here, and for the reasons I laid out previously, I think it's borderline absur…

People choose what to worry about. You can say it's unfair because they could've worried about a different set of things, but at the end of the day it's their choice.

I'm not saying you can't worry about this; I'm saying it does not seem to be a particular compelling reason for Mojo being closed source for so long, and I'm dubious that the rationale was due to anything like this.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#116

Post by chambers »

saghm wrote: post #115
LoganDark wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People choose what to worry about. You can say it's unfair because they could've worried about a different set of things, but at the end of the day it's their choice.

I'm not saying you can't worry about this; I'm saying it does not seem to be a particular compelling reason for Mojo being closed source for so long, and I'm dubious that the rationale was due to anything like this.

> I'm not saying you can't worry about this

The relentless demand for justification is indistinguishable from a demand for others to stop doing things you don't like.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#117

Post by kibwen »

geodel wrote: post #114
kibwen wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it could a meme "What would Rust people do?" when deciding what should not be done You betray your own ignorance here. Rust became massively successful despite having no corporate mandate or Big Tech progenitor, precisely because it listened to its users and empowered them to participate in the language design and development process. Trying to feebly gesture in the direction of Rust's async support doubly betr…

> Please don't bother speaking on Rust's history or development process again, to spare us your tiresome and consistent ignorance. Well, one can always head back to their echo chamber to avoid hurt feelings, instead of telling others to not speak their mind.

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" ~ Isaac Asimov, 1980

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#118

Post by mastermage »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #21
fluidcruft wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open sourcing was on Mojo's roadmap long before Qualcomm was in the picture.

close source language is a dumb concept anyway

nearly as bad as closed source compilers. Looking at you ADA (one of the imho nicest designed languages) suffering from an awfull network of closed source compilers.

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#119

Post by snovymgodym »

saghm wrote: post #75
snovymgodym wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust's type system is very Haskell/ML inspired, specifically the first class support for algebraic types and pattern matching. Modern C++ has come a long way with typed optionals and variants, but it's very tacked-on and lacks the safety guarantees and ergonomics of a language designed with this paradigm at a fundamental level.

So what does this actually translate to in terms of Mojo? Rust has algebraic types and pattern matching, C++ has some specific use cases that are "tacked-on", to use your phrasing, so when the parent comment says that Mojo is what a good C++ would look like, they're saying...it doesn't have algebraic types, or that they're tacked on? It's not clear to me why that would be a selling point, so giving the parent comment…

I don't know about Mojo. I was just answering "...I can't think of obvious ways in which Rust's semantics (as opposed to syntax) are more functional than C++'s"

Re: The Mojo language (by Modular, now Qualcomm) is now open-source

#120

Post by geodel »

kibwen wrote: post #117
geodel wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't bother speaking on Rust's history or development process again, to spare us your tiresome and consistent ignorance. Well, one can always head back to their echo chamber to avoid hurt feelings, instead of telling others to not speak their mind.

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" ~ Isaac Asimov, 1980

True. On positive side sometimes cult members do see wrong in their ways and apologize[1] . Sadly it is not always they will do that. Mostly they will spend time on attacking non-members.

1. https://blog.rust-lang.org/2023/05/29/RustConf/

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