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Simulacra and Simulation

en.wikipedia.org

21–30 of 41 posts

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#21
Great book, though it requires a bit of experience sifting through florid 20th century French philosophical prose. I would strongly encourage people not to get fixated too heavily on the "simulation" aspect in terms of what we think of these days when we hear "simulation". When it comes to Baudrillard, it's always important to focus on the semiotic aspect. What something is referring to, and whether there even is a thing for it to refer to.

As we approach the fall season, I'd recommend this little blog post to make it more clear: http://www.critical-theory.com/understanding-jean-baudrillar...

It discusses how the fact that we associate pumpkin spice lattes with fall, despite pumpkin not really needing to be harvested only in fall anymore and despite there not even being any pumpkin in the drink to necessitate even the tenuous seasonal connection. To quote the main arguments here:

>The fact that we welcome the return of pumpkin season, save for those who demand they buy these pumpkins from an ethically sourced gluten free farm just masks the fact that there are no seasons. We could probably ship pumpkins from all around the world to get our pumpkin fix year-round. But even then, it’s only the third order of that list above. It’s not quite at that next level pure simulacra shit.

>Did I mention that there’s no pumpkin in your pumpkin spice latte? It’s nutmeg (and a few other spices). In other words, that delicious sip of fall you just imbibed is actually a pure simulacrum, of that fourth order. Pumpkin spice doesn’t conceal the fact that there are no longer seasons, pumpkin spice has no referent in reality, it exists for its own sake. The only thing “pumpkin spice”refers to is itself– like the distinct difference between “cherry flavored” items and “red flavored” candy that claims to be cherry-flavored.

>Those who bake will quickly note that “pumpkin spice” derives from the mixtures of spices (nutmeg, allspice, etc) that go into a pumpkin pie. But that’s exactly the point: it doesn’t matter whether “pumpkin spice” actually has any correlation to reality. Ads for pumpkin spice items tout pumpkins and other fall fare, as if there’s a biological imperative to shove “things that go well with pumpkin” into our collectively fat faces when the leaves start to turn. Nutmeg and allspice are also available year-round, as is canned pumpkin, meaning we could clearly sate our desires at any time.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

going to respond to your other comment here since it got killed: i think a lot of art could be described as fashionable nonsense, and hyperreality is an artistic philosophy. it's interesting to contemplate the root concept of a map overflowing its territory, however consuming long tracts of resulting thought is questionably useful. i didnt mind reading some of baudrillard's cool thoughts books, application of hyperre…

(This is a reply to Der_Einzige.)

Way too sweeping for my taste. There’s obviously some truth to that. On the other hand, it’s way too easy and convenient to dismiss things as PSYOPs. To my grandfather, every LGBTQ Pride event is a PSYOP or a consequence of one. I was sitting in the audience at a political event last year. When the topic turned to union work, a young woman started rolling her eyes and rambling on about old white men. With this shift away from class solidarity toward identity-based division, I also find it hard not to see PSYOPs at work in the background. Postcolonial studies according to Said, Spivak, Chakrabarty, etc., are a case in point for me: critiques of universalism, critiques of power in “white” knowledge production, and decolonization debates. All of this comes from the Foucault school of thought and contains the same contradictions. But there are no better tools for undermining widespread, international solidarity and political organization.

It’s not enough to simply dismiss these things as PSYOPs. First, because the intended division still works. People influenced by these schools of thought won’t be easily convinced by an “Ackchyually” meme. Real, substantive persuasion is required here. Second, the fact that a thinker has been favored in some way does not invalidate their thinking. It’s worth taking a closer look to determine where criticism is warranted and where their ideas are useful and worth building upon.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#23
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

> How readable and accessible is this book?

As with most works of cultural theory you need to read it few times, and also check other works of his. Otherwise you may end up reducing concepts from this book to social media or AI slop.

Moreover, books like this usually are just phrases in a long dialectical process. For example, it is useful to read Debord first, and then move to Baudrillard.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#24
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

Tried to read it, gave up.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#25
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

"readable and accessible" are some of the last words I would use to describe the book.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#26
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

> It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

Do you think it is because Ellul is hard to read or because Kaczynski is just more well-known for obvious reasons?

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#27
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

It's hard but if you read it once for the vibes and then pay closer attention the next time you go through it's not too hard. Baudrillard is a Zizek-level philosopher in the sense that his own celebrity is kind of at the centre of most of his work (this doesn't mean it's simple, dumb or low-quality, it's pretty interesting, it's just also kinda sci-fi/fanciful as opposed to hardcore logic-chopping or idk complex historiography like some of his contemporaries)

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#28
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

Depends on your proficiency. As a former philosophy student I find it one of the more readable books. It still is probably hard to wrap your head around as a layperson not used to this kind of theoretical thinking.

But what it is not: Some authors use word plays, complexity and semantics to make their ideas appear more sophisticated than they are. This is not that.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#29
post #19

How readable and accessible is this book? I am always attracted to philosophy and culture theory books, but more often than not they are extremely dry and academic, and sadly I require more excitement to hold my squirrel attention. It is no wonder much more people have read the “Industrial Society and its Future” than anything by Jacques Ellul.

Its not great. I suggest reading Villem Flusser instead.

Re: Simulacra and Simulation

#30
I Just finished listening to this episode of Philosophize This podcast https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/simulacra-and-simul.... Whole-heartedly recommend this podcast episode the entire podcast to anyone who is remotely interested in learning the "modern western canon" in Layman's terms.
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