Live data from Hacker News

Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

quantum5.ca

281–290 of 311 posts

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#281
post #250
post #17

I agree with their conclusion. I somewhat regret buying my framework laptop at this stage, because the answer to every fault is "buy a new component, from framework". I'm not sure I blame them for this really, but there is no competitive market of parts (or really any market at all), which means that the reality is that you're just locking your money to them. They also often have stock issues, so woe betide you if yo…

We bulk bought a lot of Framework Intel 12th gen laptops to kit out our engineering team. Within a year many of these (>20%) started experiencing the "400 MHz bug" where the CPU is either intermittently or constantly stuck at 400 MHz, and the laptop starts to heat up like an oven. As far as I know there has never been any conclusive fix for this issue from Framework, or even an official debugging guide. It really sou…

Have you seen any of the fixes people talked about in that thread? Apparently some fixed it, hopefully something works for you https://community.frame.work/t/framework-400mhz-issue/83910/

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#282
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point. And they do have the industrial knowledge / experience to create higher quality parts than Framework. But note that the value difference between Framework's offering and the others you cited is that repairability is today a lower priority for them (due to prioritising planned obsolescence), where as it is the core value around which the Framework business is built. Why aren't we seeing more mod…

> Planned obsolescence How is this supposed to work exactly? The company builds a product that fails quickly, so that people will buy another one? I'm highly skeptical that this works on consumers. Almost nobody will buy the same brand after the first one craps out. And I'm certain that it doesn't work on companies who will track failure rates for the product across a large fleet. Cheap products exist because of a ra…

- Why our tech fails us: Learning from century-old light bulb that never goes out - https://interestingengineering.com/culture/planned-obsolesce...

> ... but there is also a market for $150 Best Buy laptops for broke college students.

Sure. Why do you think such a market exists? Compare it with the Automobile industry, where really cheap cars (comparable to the $150 laptop market segment) don't really exist. Instead we have a flourishing second-hand market - a whole new industry around selling used cars. Even if a cheaper, lower quality car were to exist, people would still buy a good-quality, used car over a cheaper, lower quality one. Why? Repairability. Why would I buy a cheaper low quality car, if I can buy a good quality car that I can repair as needed, for the same price or even lower. A market for cheaper, new laptops exist because today you fear buying an older computer that is no longer repairable or upgradeable. (And note that it isn't as if the old products wouldn't make money - people will still need to buy the parts for it. The profits would be lesser than selling whole devices though). It is because electronics have somehow escaped the purview of consumer rights and repairability that even the Automobile industry (and others) have started including more and more electronics in them to make their products less repairable.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic hallucinated information...

Just ask for citations by forcing the LLM to provide a verbatim quote from a linked source. If the LLM is incapable of doing so without hallucinating (cough, Gemini, cough) use a better one. I don't get the LLM hate on this site sometimes. Just because it is easy to use an LLM irresponsibly doesn't mean all LLM usage has to be irresponsible.

    > I don't get the LLM hate on this site sometimes.
I feel the same as you. Internally, I call this "LLM allergy".

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just ask for citations by forcing the LLM to provide a verbatim quote from a linked source. If the LLM is incapable of doing so without hallucinating (cough, Gemini, cough) use a better one. I don't get the LLM hate on this site sometimes. Just because it is easy to use an LLM irresponsibly doesn't mean all LLM usage has to be irresponsible.

> I don't get the LLM hate on this site sometimes. I feel the same as you. Internally, I call this "LLM allergy".

[dead]

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#285

I think cases like this should be brought before a small claims court. It seems unfair. The company (Framework Computer) provided the software, but the software is faulty and broke ("bricked") the laptop. Can you imagine if a GPU driver caused the card to get bricked? Even if out of warranty, surely the manuf would be legally liable in many jurisdictions for this faulty driver. The author's LinkedIn profile[1] tells…

"talk with an LLM to follow the correct steps" Or, if you need legal advice, go to a lawyer, not an LLM.

Lawyers cost hundreds of dollars per hour...

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple absolutely does not fix bricked systems out of warranty, regardless of cause or fault. Certainly not two years removed from the warranty. They can, in very rare cases, get bricked by failed updates. It’s not totally unheard of. “Unequivocally wrong” is highly debatable. You may feel that way but I don’t. I’m not defending anyone, I’m just providing a reality check on how things work when you buy a product from…

So you are saying if your laptop is out of warranty, they are free to do everything they want without any responsibilities ? Like if this update bricked like thousands of out of warranty laptop, they are still free to go?

This sounds like an extension of my logic beyond my meaning. This implication is that any manufacturer can just brick devices en masse, perhaps even on purpose, with no consequence or recourse, which is not at all what I was saying.

Here's a little story to frame this a little better and help you understand my meaning: My second-to-last MacBook Pro before I quit the Apple platform was the 2016 MacBook Pro with the butterfly keyboard.

That machine had a flawed design that was never 100% fixed, and Apple swept the whole issue under the rug until media pressure intensified. They then made a warranty extension for the keyboards.

The fix did not work 100%. The underlying keyboard design was flawed. I got my MacBook Pro "fixed" under this extended warranty,

The result was a huge class action lawsuit, for which I just received my last check this year. I was not fully compensated or given a refund. What I ended up doing was unloading the laptop much earlier than my normal upgrade cycle to switch to the 2019 16" MacBook Pro (Intel) that no longer possessed this fatal design flaw.

This incident damaged Apple's brand perception with at least one customer, me.

So, I'm not saying there are zero consequences for Framework not making this right. At the same time, every company that makes products draws a line somewhere. A restaurant isn't going to compensate me for a bad meal I had a month ago. Dell isn't going to buy me a new computer because my 7 year old Inspiron is on the fritz even though I expect a device like that to last longer.

If you bring a 2016 MacBook Pro in to Apple to get the keyboard replaced under the keyboard replacement program, Apple will not do it for free. The program has expired. Even though the system cost Apple millions of dollars in a class action suit and the design is fundamentally flawed, Apple will not make it right for their customers indefinitely. They offered a limited time resolution for customers who experienced that issue.

There is not a customer expectation that all the products they buy will last forever or will be indefinitely fixed for free regardless of issue, so in practice it's a balancing act between minimizing your long-term support costs and pissing off your customer base.

To directly answer your question though, a lot of times bricking or severely handicapping products happens and companies are free to go. Ask me what happened to my second generation Google Nest thermostat. Of course, my reaction to that was to throw the thing in the trash and resolve to never buy a piece of Google hardware ever again. But I'm sure thousands of people responded by justifying an upgrade to the latest and greatest and calling that a win because shopping for something new and unboxing a package is a fun dopamine hit.

I don't think that everything I described above is what is happening with Framework in this situation. I don't think there is any indication that failed BIOS flashes are a widespread issue. It seems that the standard rectification for a bad BIOS flash is a replacement board because it is considered a rare occurrence.

Remember that, if you don't want to worry about this or any other hardware failure, you can go ahead and buy a 3-year extended warranty at time of purchase, and that sort of option is available with basically every piece of consumer technology on the market.

I would agree that it would be better for them to be able to service it for a lower cost or maybe have a BIOS recovery function built-in to the hardware, but other than that I don't see anything that deviates very far from standard industry practice and policy.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#287
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Planned obsolescence How is this supposed to work exactly? The company builds a product that fails quickly, so that people will buy another one? I'm highly skeptical that this works on consumers. Almost nobody will buy the same brand after the first one craps out. And I'm certain that it doesn't work on companies who will track failure rates for the product across a large fleet. Cheap products exist because of a ra…

- Why our tech fails us: Learning from century-old light bulb that never goes out - https://interestingengineering.com/culture/planned-obsolesce... > ... but there is also a market for $150 Best Buy laptops for broke college students. Sure. Why do you think such a market exists? Compare it with the Automobile industry, where really cheap cars (comparable to the $150 laptop market segment) don't really exist. Instead…

Your link doesn't really work right, but note that light bulbs are not at all planned obsolescence. It's been known for a long time that making the filament temperature of an incandescent bulb hotter makes it brighter, more efficient, and whiter, but also burn out faster, due to the tungsten sublimating. Anybody can make a super-long-lasting bulb that is really dim, inefficient, and dull just by making the filament temperature lower. Nobody will ever buy one to actually light their home, because it sucks compared to the competition, but it can run for a crazy long time in a museum or something. And the useless museum bulb will cause a bazillion news and blog articles to be written in support of a mostly-false narrative that we don't make things to last.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#288
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your laptop dies what would you prefer, to be able to buy the specific broken part easily and replace it yourself or be forced to buy an entire new laptop?

> When your laptop dies I assume you have when in italics to show this is a “when, not if” scenario. Some anecdotal evidence for you: I’ve been buying used laptops of a certain brand for almost 20 years. I buy when they are 2-3-4 years old, keep them for 3-4-5 and then sell. Usual buy price is around $1000, sell around $300. I tote them around the world. Writing, light dev, photo and video editing. Thousands of hours…

That means you've purchased about 10 laptops at most during that 20 year timespan.

If, hypothetically, laptops have a 2% failure rate by age 5, that means you had an 81% chance of never encountering a dead laptop. With these hypothetical numbers, your experience is not extraordinary or indicative of an incredibly reliable brand.

The other thing that skews statistics in your favor is that you would have never bought a for-parts laptop. I.e., you buy a 3-year old laptop, which has a survivorship bias because it is currently working at time of purchase. You wouldn't actually buy one of the ones that broke between years 0-3 [1] and hasn't been repaired yet. Even if the failure rate by 5 years is much higher than 2%, your probability of experiencing a failure is still higher than if you had bought the computer new and kept it for 5 years (compared to buying a working system at 3 years old and selling it at 5 years old).

We can't actually guess your preferred brand because it's likely that 100% of consumer laptop brands last 5 years have a single-digit percentage failure rate.

The 3-year extended warranty for a Framework 13 costs $139 and the cheapest pre-built configuration costs $988. The warranty cost scales with part selection (e.g., configure the system to max it out at over $5000 and the warranty cost is now $259)

The industry average gross margin ((revenue - COGS)/revenue) is 40%

I'll take a "typical" configuration of the mid-tier AMD CPU, 1TB storage, and 16GB of RAM, pre-built cost is $1774.00 (no OS). 3-year warranty cost is $209.

We can assume the raw cost of the laptop hardware is approximately $1060, although that's without any consideration to operating overhead, shipping, etc.

That means if Framework's complete replacement failure rate at 3 years is higher than the ballpark of 10-20%, that extended warranty loses money.

That's a pretty high failure rate, but we have to also recall that extended warranties have about a 50-70% profit margin across the electronics industry.

I think our napkin math here generally aligns with the idea that the amount of consumer electronics that fail within 3-5 years or so is somewhere in the single digit percentage range.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#289

I apparently have a very uncommon viewpoint on this, given the flavor of the comments. I won't try and say that this situation is totally fine, or ideal, or anything close to it, but I think that in order for us to know how to feel, we need one very important piece of information that is missing: was the actual BIOS update itself bad in some way, or was this just the kind of error that happens sometimes, especially a…

While I've had issues doing bios updates on my Framework, it's been more due to the fact that my main drive has too small of an EFI partition to update with the main drive in the laptop (who knows why it takes so much space to update the firmware in the first place).

That said, with another drive (and a larger EFI partition), I've been able to do 4 or 5 different bios updates on my AMD 7040 Framework 13.

Re: Fixing a bricked Framework laptop

#290
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Framework really caught everyone's attention with the fun DIY repair angle, but Dell/Lenovo/HP have been selling repairable laptops to IT departments for decades. Yeah, but does Dell allow you to change your laptop's mainboard for another mainboard with time? That is such a quantum leap. You do not have to adjust your self to a new keyboard just because you wanted a new processor.

Actually, they do. I'm not sure if it's officially supported, but the 7550 (10th gen) and 7560 (11th gen) have the same motherboard layout, and users have reported swapping successfully in other models. You also see reports of users putting the 7560's Ampere-series graphics cards in a 7550, which only ships with Turing.

This is more of a happy coincidence than a guaranteed upgrade path, though.
Post reply on HN