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Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#481

Post by MrSkelter »

dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

Why do you assume that building data centers is critical to begin with? You seem to start with an assumption you haven’t even questioned? Just 5 years ago very few Americans thought massive data center buildout was key to the economy.

Your comment about the size of the earth is confounding. How is that relevant? Raising temps 4 degrees locally is a serious issue. Yes it will be worse if it scales but it doesn’t have to in order for us to care.

The tech companies could be building green data centers. Using renewable energy they are paying to add to the grid ( ie building the solar plant along with the data centers) and then flowing half the power they make back to the grid to lower prices. They could similarly work with water, purifying non drinking sources and adding to supply overall.

Costs would balloon but the negative impacts would go and getting a data center would mean jobs, lower prices for energy, less carbon and clean water.

Doing it the way we are - based on subsidies and pollution - is a choice.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#482

Post by fragmede »

MrSkelter wrote: post #481
dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

Why do you assume that building data centers is critical to begin with? You seem to start with an assumption you haven’t even questioned? Just 5 years ago very few Americans thought massive data center buildout was key to the economy. Your comment about the size of the earth is confounding. How is that relevant? Raising temps 4 degrees locally is a serious issue. Yes it will be worse if it scales but it doesn’t have…

5 years ago was 2021. Covid was causing a lot of thoughts about the economy that I think, people who were thinking about it did actually include data centers in, given that shelter in place meant that Internet usage was up. As far as whether I think data centers are justified, the climate accords have failed to stop industrialization, so the only way forwards is through - meaning if data centers are how we get to fusion and advanced geothermal and solar and wind power because of the sheer power demands, so be it. I wish we could just get off coal and oil in the first place, but me wishing things has no effect on reality.

As far as what tech companies could be doing to be green, Google's investment into Fervo Energy gives them energy that runs 24/7 with no reliance on the weather or the sun. They've got an initial plant going, all that's left is to replicate it and find cheaper ways to do it.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#483

Post by dzhiurgis »

ebiederm wrote: post #134
dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

Part of the problem is AI datacenters make bad neighbors. Because they are in such a rush to become operational they cut corners. Instead of AC they use swamp coolers draining aquifers and thus wells of the neighbors. Instead of using new power plants (AKA using renewables as most new plants do, and all old datacenters did). They either hook up to the grid and jack up everyones electric prices or use generators becau…

> They either hook up to the grid and jack up everyones electric prices or use generators because they can't be bothered to wait for a grid connection.

Got source for that? Because in 90%+ of cases the power prices dropped because they are baseload.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#484

Post by AnthonyMouse »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #350
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Noise, pollution Both of these are complaints about gas turbines rather than data centers. Data centers can pretty easily do the opposite by offering to curtail load during energy supply shortfalls, both through region shifting and by temporarily operating backup generators, which allows the grid to add more renewable generation without having intermittency issues, and thereby operate fewer gas turbines. Obviously…

> Both of these are complaints about gas turbines rather than data centers. Regarding noise, industrial gas turbines are pretty quiet. By comparison, the cooling infrastructure for the data center is much louder.

The cooling infrastructure for a data center is a radiator with a fan. A gas turbine is essentially a jet engine.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#485

Post by curt15 »

rpdillon wrote: post #462
bigbadfeline wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The childish behavior is disagreeing with how datacenters are being deployed and reducing that to "more is bad" Why is that childish? Bubble data-center economics is bad, we have the history to prove it, this isn't the first bubble. Do you have real arguments against it besides calling it "childish" which is itself childish? > I'm begging the collective here to consider what they are really asking for, because our…

You're assuming a bubble. I get it. But do you really think we have more datacenters now, or even an equal number, to what we'll have in the future? It's like power consumption: it's going to scale, so we need to control how it scales. I don't know where the conversation goes when folks just talk about how useless it is and how compute is bad. Take two steps back: do you really think we're at peak compute? If not, sh…

> It's like power consumption: it's going to scale, so we need to control how it scales.

I don't think your premise is obvious at all. Developed countries have stagnant or shrinking populations, and there is a general trend toward greater power efficiency over time. So why should total power consumption be expected to keep increasing?

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#486

Post by EdiX »

watwut wrote: post #479
EdiX wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't want them to replace their job, they want them to replace other peoples jobs.

Actually, no. Actually most people do not want everyone else to be jobless or suffer etc. There are subgroups who enjoy harm to others, but most dont.

Do most people buy their airplane tickets at a physical travel agent? Do they do most of their shopping at physical stores? Do they send paper mail instead of email or messages? Do they worry about buying from assembly lines that are least mechanized? Do they buy a car or take a horse carriage?

It isn't about hurting others, it's about convenience and price.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#487

Post by m4rtink »

dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

Regardless of the datacenter issues being true or not, I think any friction that can be applied on "AI" is good. Not to mention people pushing "AI" not really bothering with facts either.

This is necessary to bring "AI" possessed people back to reality from their feverish dream world, so we can get rid of all the negative externalities of the "AI" push & finally find out what this new tech is actually genuinely useful for.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#488

Post by m4rtink »

sjoedev wrote: post #65
dwoldrich wrote: post #35

I cannot figure out if this data center panic is legit or trumped up. There are legitimate nation-state and political entities that would love to create pressure for degrowth in this area. And, pollution and natural resources are a concern, yes, fine, sure. NIMBY happens, I get it ... *BUT*, we've been building huge data centers for decades and they are minuscule compared to the size of the earth. My skeptic meter ma…

We’re building data centers in the U.S. at an unprecedented and increasing rate [1]. Is it so hard to imagine that something which was fine at one scale may begin to cause issues at some massively higher scale? If I drink one glass of wine per day, it’s probably fine. If I drink three bottles per day, I’m gonna start having problems. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/monthly-spending-data-cen...

So we got a lot or bike paths and roads instead of the old railway tracks, many of them built during railway mania boom cycles. I wonder what will we use these shoddy windowless boxes for ?

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#489

Post by [deleted] »

wat10000 wrote: post #442
Forgeties79 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It’s a lot bigger now” just means we have to deal with realities of scale, that’s a true statement so I’m not sure why that’s different from my scale argument. The whole point is “yes these 2 things are the same, except scale, which can make it very different.” 1 bee sting is one thing, 1000 is another. 1 piece of candy is one thing, 1000 is another. You are assigning additional value to my comments - I get it but I…

My main point is that this goes both ways: there are those who act as if scale is not a part of the conversation, and those who act as if scale is the only part of the conversation, and neither one is sensible.

[deleted]

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#490

Post by rpdillon »

bigbadfeline wrote: post #464
rpdillon wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the proposal, and is utter fantasy. I'm engaging a hypothetical here -- none of what's being discussed is even close to reality, in the sense that it won't be implemented. There will be new datacenters, some communities will successfully resist, but many won't. What you propose is similar to proposing that we'll solve climate change by moving back to horse-and-buggy. Theoretically possible, practically imp…

> What you propose is similar to proposing that we'll solve climate change by moving back to horse-and-buggy. And strawmen, don't forget the strawmen... can you stop doing that for a second? You're just underlying your lack of arguments. > There will be new datacenters, some communities will successfully resist, but many won't. We moved from "don't resist or else" to "resistance is futile"... what else is new?

A strawman is different than an analogy.

But this discussion is quite tired. Thanks for your insights.

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