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Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

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Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#451

Post by insane_dreamer »

whimsicalism wrote: post #322
ArcHound wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out people have quite strong feelings about career -ruining and planet-burning tech advances. I think it's good that there are topics that elicit emotional responses. It does make the discussion a bit difficult, gotta admit that.

I do not believe for one instance that people are coming from a legitimate concern around planet-burning and reaching their conclusions about AI vs. reasoning backwards from wanting reasons to be anti-AI. Very few people I've met seems willing to make one iota of earnest personal sacrifice for avoiding actual in-real-life planet-burning industries. Actively pisses me off hearing climate rationale for opposing somethi…

> I do not believe for one instance that people are coming from a legitimate concern around planet-burning and reaching their conclusions about AI vs. reasoning backwards from wanting reasons to be anti-AI.

You're certainly wrong in my case, and I can't speak for others but I think you're probably wrong about many of them.

> Actively pisses me off hearing climate rationale for opposing something so relatively inconsequential while the house is on fire from pre-existing industry that is grandfathered in.

not complicated: it's much harder to stop pre-existing industry than it is to stop the building of new data-centers (esp for something that isn't really going to help most of the population much; it's not we're accepting an increase in global warming in exchange for curing cancer)

just because I'm voicing opposition to data centers doesn't mean that I'm okay with all the the other sources of global warming. Those are separate discussions.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#452

Post by insane_dreamer »

bdcravens wrote: post #52

If only we had the same amount of concern about oil refineries and gas stations. https://environmentalintegrity.org/news/13-oil-refineries-in... https://www.theenergymix.com/gas-stations-leave-behind-toxic...

people wanted cheap gas and voted for a party that pretty much got rid of the EPA (and they still didn't get cheap gas)

if they had voted differently we'd see more positive action

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#453

Post by HDBaseT »

01100011 wrote: post #330
thegrim33 wrote: post #212

If even on Hacker News a topic like this can't be objectively discussed, what hope do we really have? What is the solution? Even in a place like this, the comments are full of extremist ideology, bickering, people arguing from feelings, people just repeating echo chambers mantras, and a significant portion of the comments are probably from inauthentic/propaganda accounts. We're incapable of just using a place like th…

We need some gatekeeping. We need automated fact checking. We need moderation based on someone's domain expertise and not how well their argument appeals to readers. User moderation is fundamentally broken and maybe only worked for a while due to the participants tending towards a particular background. Also, in the age of AI it's questionable if community forums can even continue to exist.

Who is the arbiter of the fact checking algorithm? If we use AI can we really trust the outputs are hallucinated?

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#454

Post by insane_dreamer »

whimsicalism wrote: post #405
fulafel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fossils use, production and trade needs to be rapidly ramped down to mitigate the climate catastrophe and resulting megadeaths on all fronts.

democracies will not vote for this. even in California, politicians run on policies like $500 gas rebates for anyone owning a gas powered vehicle

Biden had rebates for EVs which Trump killed so that EV sales would go down and gas sales would go up

that's a pretty stark difference

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#455

Post by platevoltage »

xnx wrote: post #187
platevoltage wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eagerly awaiting your report.

During peak sunlight conditions, a standard black asphalt surface will readily absorb solar radiation, sending its surface temperature to 150°F–190°F . A clean white roof reflects up to 80% of sunlight, and topping out at around 95°F–115°F. ( https://sentryroof.com/news/how-hot-does-your-commercial-roo... )

That sounds like more of an argument to build green space, not data centers.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#456

Post by insane_dreamer »

quickthrowman wrote: post #414
testerteert000a wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "the water thing" is make or break for for the southwest, which includes LA, and LA's water system includes NorCal consequences, and California water issues include all-country impacts due to the farming there. If you haven't been paying attention to the "water thing," that doesn't mean it's not serious af.

Millions of acre-feet of water, far more than all of the data centers use in the United States combined for evaporative cooling, are used to flood irrigate alfalfa crops in California and Arizona to feed cows. 5% of this is exported. It’s orders of magnitude more water. All of the irrigated golf courses combined use more water than all of the US data centers combined.

if we were seeing a big increase in building new golf courses in those areas, we'd have the same protests

same if increasing alfalfa farming was increasing significantly

it's harder to stop something that already exists (shutting down existing golf courses or alfalfa farms has consequences for the local communities) than to stop something from coming into existence in the first place

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#458

Post by bigbadfeline »

rpdillon wrote: post #404
grubbusThewiz wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Unlikely. I'm not sure where HN is hosted, but I think it's a bare metal server in a colo, not a data center. The childish behavior is disagreeing with how datacenters are being deployed and reducing that to "more is bad", and then stretching the position to "data centers bad". I'm begging the collective here to consider what they are really asking for, because our society, from the government down, is built on the c…

> The childish behavior is disagreeing with how datacenters are being deployed and reducing that to "more is bad"

Why is that childish? Bubble data-center economics is bad, we have the history to prove it, this isn't the first bubble. Do you have real arguments against it besides calling it "childish" which is itself childish?

> I'm begging the collective here to consider what they are really asking for, because our society, from the government down, is built on the cloud.

You're begging "the collective" to stop worrying and learn to love the bubble... or else? OK, or else what? If everything is already "built on the cloud" there's already enough cloud to go around, built at a normal pace, without bubbles and without incurring huge debts, deficits, circular financing and what not. See, the how can be done better.

> Finding a healthy way to provide compute is important, and "data center bad" doesn't get us there.

That's a strawman, which you sneaked in here: 'reducing that to "more is bad" and then ... to "data centers bad"'

The issue is, and always has been - the bubble way of doing it as bad - slow down and do it properly. Either way the public isn't going to get the benefits of the build-out, at least try to reduce the negative externalities to an acceptable level.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#459

Post by bigbadfeline »

rpdillon wrote: post #450
grubbusThewiz wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perception is its built on cloud. How much if that is true and how much of it is carefully constructed propaganda? Implanted and reinforced beliefs to make workers hustle to ensure the server fields produce enough crop this quarter. Most people on the planet are not tech people. Their world is not built on cloud at all but ensuring there is sufficient food and stuff to satisfy their biological needs. It's asocia…

I think you're vastly under-estimating the extent to which power grids, water systems, and global supply chains and manufacturing rely heavily on datacenters. The Trump administration pulled a bunch of ocean sensors, whose data was aggregated in the cloud, in an attempt to save money. Except, those sensors were not only providing research data on changes in ocean currents, but helping fisheries make predictions about…

> I think you're vastly under-estimating the extent to which power grids, water systems, and global supply chains and manufacturing rely heavily on datacenters.

These things were with us and worked better before datacenters even existed. Datacenters are a mere convenience which is now used to force monopolization of compute while subjecting society to extremely risky, but unnecessary dependencies and centralization.

You say we're already there? A good reason to start undoing it ASAP.

Re: Field measurements of neighborhood-scale air temperature impacts of data centers

#460

Post by throwaway2037 »

jst1fthsdys wrote: post #416
throwaway2037 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I never see pushback about: Northern Virginia has the highest density of data centers in the United States. Google tells me there are over 600 data centers in Virginia (that is nuts!). This build-out has been happening for more than 25 years. Until very recently, I have not heard any pushback from people in that area. What am I missing?

Better question, why don't they just build them in N. Virginia then?

I assume that data center builders can get cheaper land and/or lower taxes and/or easier regulations elsewhere. Also, the US is gigantic, so you want to have data centers geographically dispersed to reduce ping time for customers.
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