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Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

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Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone shoots some more CEOs, they'll have a change of heart. (A lot of people are going to be very mad at me about this comment, without having the awareness to understand that this is the inevitable conclusion to, "You wanna play rough, ah?!"ing people's access to life-saving treatment. Please grok that we can preclude any more assassinations by cutting profits and letting people get the care they need.)

If people voted for universal healthcare we could get it done. The issue is that there’s a sizable, significant voting population that votes against it

I have wondered if an option would be to have a state make it law that every 4 or 5 years they open the bidding for a health care insurance provider for the entire state. A state committee then takes the bid with best premiums to services ratio and they do the job for the contract term.

There would still be the option of people and businesses to buy 3rd party "extras" like private hospital rooms, vision care etc. on top the state plan, but some level of basic health care would be provided to all people paying into the state plan.

Would that work?

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#802
post #736

Legislate transparent pricing for all medications and procedures first. Paying 40 dollars for lozenges in the ER is insane. Right now the system has an opaque pricing structure which makes no sense. Force hospitals to expose API's with transparent pricing.

For hospitals (where the majority of US healthcare spending occurs), pricing transparency has been the rule for more than 5 years:

https://www.cms.gov/priorities/key-initiatives/hospital-pric...

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#803
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All insurance should be non-profit. Aren't their profits regulated regardless? If all insurance companies became non profit and let's say total prices dropped by 3-5% that still wouldn't change the situation dramatically? There are many factors, e.g. amongst other things American doctors are better paid than just about anywhere else in the world.

> Aren't their profits regulated regardless? Yes and no. It's sort of a weird thing where insurance is somewhat regulated nationally but also regulated in a piecemeal fashion state by state. There's a non-government standards body called the NAIC which provided national guidance for insurers. Most (all?) states basically say that "if you follow NAIC standards, you are good". > If all insurance companies became non pr…

> One major issue is that the ACA put in a loss ratio of 80%. Which isn't a terrible thing in principle, it forces insurance companies to spend money on treatment. The problem is it also means that the profit of insurance companies is tied directly to how much they spend on healthcare. As a result, they are incentivized to spend more, not less, on medical treatments so they can justify higher premiums.

Investors care about margins, not absolute dollar figures. If your non-medical costs are capped, the incentive would be to reduce your other costs to preserve or maximize profits.

So the 80/20 rule is unlikely to have caused anything. More likely it's too low, and the profit ratio that can extracted and passed to investors is still higher than most investing alternatives, which is why it keeps attracting more investment. Without the 80/20 rule we would have seen the same thing or worse, though perhaps slower premium increases but less treatment delivered.

Really this all points to structural problems in the market. Naively we might presume there's not enough competition, and there could be many reasons for that--over regulation, lack of transparency. But it's more complicated than just that because medical treatment, particularly the most costly treatments, presumably have very high price elasticity [citation needed]. Over the long term, investors are just gonna keep trying to draw as much from the well as they can. The problem with public single-payer is that the basic demand curve dynamic doesn't magically change, so rather than complain about high prices people complain about shortages, OR the government just keeps borrowing to maintain satisfactory treatment access until they can't borrow anymore.

Maybe the only solution to rising healthcare costs is to slow down the pace of medical advancements. People love to point out how cheap care is elsewhere, but the most advanced and costly treatments usually become available in the US first, taking years or even decades to spread. (Note, higher prices on pre-existing tech subsidize the cost of bleeding edge treatments, so comparing MRI prices isn't very helpful.) Moreover, people elsewhere don't really know about them so it doesn't detract from their perception of the quality of care they receive. If you're dying and the doctor says there's nothing he can offer you, then that's that and no ill feelings toward the medical establishment. If he says there is something but it's gonna be crazy expensive or there's a shortage/waiting list, now your pissed.

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because in the us everything is integer multiple times more expensive

No, that's not why. Doctors also make drastically more than the median wage. Doctors make so much in the US because we have artificial scarcity of doctors.

i mean sure, but all skilled labor is trending towards 200-300K wages in the us.

if a "senior" software engineer can make half a mil, and an electrician can make 200k, of course doctor pay are high.

who is going to take 10-15 years of school and debt otherwise?

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone shoots some more CEOs, they'll have a change of heart. (A lot of people are going to be very mad at me about this comment, without having the awareness to understand that this is the inevitable conclusion to, "You wanna play rough, ah?!"ing people's access to life-saving treatment. Please grok that we can preclude any more assassinations by cutting profits and letting people get the care they need.)

If people voted for universal healthcare we could get it done. The issue is that there’s a sizable, significant voting population that votes against it

If I voted for this, could I save $1 trillion? Or would it save other people who are not me $1 trillion?

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people voted for universal healthcare we could get it done. The issue is that there’s a sizable, significant voting population that votes against it

No, overwhelmingly more people support a single payer healthcare system. The issue is that the people in Washington won’t make it a “votable” decision.

> The issue is that the people in Washington won’t make it a “votable” decision.

Sorry, that's ridiculous. Universal Health Care policies are an almost 100% partisan issue. I can literally count on one hand the number of federal lawmakers who cross party lines here.

The real problem is people like you refusing to vote for the people with the policy you want, as often as not as part of a bothsidesist stance designed to get more upvote in peer forums like HN.

The two party system may be flawed and unjust, sure. But people who want single payer are still democrats.

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is why a sizeable portion of the American (and greater Western) public seemingly votes against their interests?

A few things. -The US has had a lot of success by letting businesses run pretty free. This has produced some of the largest and most powerful companies on the planet. -The conservative party traditionally has been suspicious of a powerful, centralized government -In the US, there is a common thread of "government workers are impossible to fire" as well as a common thread of "government moves at a snail's pace". In li…

> there are many people who would prefer that healthcare is run by a private industry,

The grammar is a little ambiguous around this, but you seem to be claiming that this is a majority position. It isn't. Single payer polls over 50% basically every time it's tested (the exception being some spun partisan reframings you occasionally see pushed), and has for decades.

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#808
post #736

Legislate transparent pricing for all medications and procedures first. Paying 40 dollars for lozenges in the ER is insane. Right now the system has an opaque pricing structure which makes no sense. Force hospitals to expose API's with transparent pricing.

>Legislate transparent pricing for all medications and procedures first.

This is an impossible ask. Truly impossible. The medical care providers have spent the last 50 years or more honing the art of making costs inscrutable. Not really to make it harder for you or I to know the costs, but for the insurance companies to know the cost. 50 years is a long time, that's not just one set of workers who have done this, it's 4-6 career spans now... the first to learn it taught it to their underlings and coworkers, who invented new sophisticated techniques and bureaucracies and taught that to the third career generation, who did the same and so on.

Even if we had universal healthcare, you're not getting rid of that. It's now a culture. A transmissible, everlasting culture.

For any political ask you might come up with, absurd and difficult and even intractable as it might be, this is light years beyond that. God himself couldn't make these prices transparent.

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#809

I'd like to believe this, but the study makes a bunch of really hasty assumptions. The authors derive the $1T number from $1.3T in total cost savings and $304B in incremental spend (incremental spend is due to insuring more people). The $1.3T in cost savings come from five big buckets: lower pharmaceutical prices, Medicare-level payments to providers, reduced administrative overhead, less fraudulent billing, and fewe…

>"fewer avoidable emergency department visits and hospitalizations" assumes greater insurance coverage leads to greater access to primary care.

This is a hoot. There is an entire cohort of people who use the emergency room as their non-urgent clinic. This is not a small demographic, it must be at minimum tens of millions of people, if not going above the nine digit mark. They do this because their parents did it, and it's the only thing they know, and their parents did it because it's the only thing they knew, and they did it because their parents did the same. It is a culture that no amount of education and public service announcements will ever change.

Heaping one perverse incentive after another on top of this mess won't change it either, but will almost certainly make things worse for everyone.

>For "less fraudulent billing," a lot of people in the industry believe that Medicare has a large amount of undetected fraud.

My grandpa when he was still alive would have one new fraud story with every visit to the doctor, and he wasn't in great shape towards the end, so this was too many to count, every year for the last few. Diabetic, they ordered him compression socks at one point... a dozen show up instead of the two pair that was ordered. He'd come home and wait for a bill in the mail, and a few days later would see itemization for tests and procedures he never underwent. Over and over and over. He was sharp, argumentative, and as far as I could tell, less confused than most his own age. His experience, I think, wasn't atypical.

Re: Universal health coverage could save $1T and 114k lives a year: study

#810
post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone shoots some more CEOs, they'll have a change of heart. (A lot of people are going to be very mad at me about this comment, without having the awareness to understand that this is the inevitable conclusion to, "You wanna play rough, ah?!"ing people's access to life-saving treatment. Please grok that we can preclude any more assassinations by cutting profits and letting people get the care they need.)

I'm skeptical. It will be cheaper to hire a couple security guards and buy a couple armoured cars then turn away profits. The reaction was short lived while the insurance companies figured out how to bolster security and return to the usual. Look at what's happening in California with the proposed wealth tax. >Page’s co-founder, Sergey Brin, has poured at least $45 million into the Building a Better California Super…

>It will be cheaper to hire a couple security guards and buy a couple armoured cars

This is still a possitive outcome brought from the presence of a threat to their lives. Not as positive as the healthcare thing, but it's still jobs and a "tax" in that they are forced to purchase the vehicles which do have to be built and driven by someone not in their tax bracket.

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