Rethinking Database Programming • Hacker News Board

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#41

Post by NoDodgeQuestion » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 11:54 AM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #37

happyraul wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair to say there are other ways to interpret what happened with Elm. What if Evan stopped working on it because he needed to make a living and working on Elm wasn't going to achieve that? In that case, if working on Acadia will earn him a a living, it seems reasonable to believe he will keep working on it.

That is fair but I think that there’s not a clear thing from Evan we can point to which explains it contributes to the uncertainty in this new project. Makes me feel we should be wary of a repeat. If anything it seems what he learned from his experience with Elm is that the project should not have been open, and his main problem seemed to be community relations. Evan’s reputation precedes him so I’m sure Acadia will…

Do you nurse a personal grudge?

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#42

Post by anentropic » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 11:58 AM UTC

Needs proper docs

stuff like "The endpoint keyword" just gets a mention on the front page/readme with no further detail

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#43

Post by jeremyjh » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:02 PM UTC

I don't see anything special here. Haskell has had stuff like this for more than a decade, Selda is probably the one closest to Acadia: https://valderman.github.io/selda/

Despite their claims, this is not substantially different from ORM platforms in many languages.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#44

Post by ModernMech » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:07 PM UTC

NoDodgeQuestion wrote: post #41

ModernMech wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fair but I think that there’s not a clear thing from Evan we can point to which explains it contributes to the uncertainty in this new project. Makes me feel we should be wary of a repeat. If anything it seems what he learned from his experience with Elm is that the project should not have been open, and his main problem seemed to be community relations. Evan’s reputation precedes him so I’m sure Acadia will…

Do you nurse a personal grudge?

No, I don't know Evan and have never personally interacted with him. I'm wary of BDFLs because you can invest in a tool and then that time and energy is wasted if the wind changes.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#45

Post by mike_hearn » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:08 PM UTC

The issue with defining schemas in a non-SQL programming language is they always lag behind what the underlying database can do. Sure, your ORM-like framework can define basics like primary keys and maybe uniqueness constraints, but can it define partitioning schemes, compression methods or more advanced constraints?

Look at all the features supported here:

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sql-createtable.html

And then consider that other databases have even more. If you manage your schemas in code then you lose access to all of those, and will eventually need to write SQL anyway.

For queries it isn't such a problem, especially if you have a nice compiler. However, I recently lost faith in SQL wrappers/abstractions. The usual justification was that a lot of developers don't know SQL well, but LLMs are great at it. It's easier for the LLM to write SQL than some less familiar DSL. And SQL was written to be relatively easy to understand, especially if you do things like use CTEs and views correctly it should be possible to factor logic out to make even complex queries understandable.

The question for frameworks like Acadia is really: assuming I am fluent in SQL and know every feature of my database, what does the framework buy me? Because that's the perspective an LLM comes to it with.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#46

Post by ModernMech » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:13 PM UTC

janderland wrote: post #13

pelagicAustral wrote: post #5

So this is capable of turning a one-liner of SQL into six lines of barely readable code?

SQL is a horrible language. I’d gladly program in something composable like Elm.

Maybe so, but my father in law, who is a salesman and knows nothing about computers and programming still knows SQL.

SQL is a horrible language in the same way Excel is -- programmers hate it but the what makes it a horrible programming language to developers is what makes it accessible to non programmers.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#47

Post by leftyspook » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:14 PM UTC

happyraul wrote: post #35

ModernMech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Elm project forked into a bunch of different Elms because Evan basically abandoned / killed it. Then he got more interested with this project. What’s to say that won’t happen again?

I think it's fair to say there are other ways to interpret what happened with Elm. What if Evan stopped working on it because he needed to make a living and working on Elm wasn't going to achieve that? In that case, if working on Acadia will earn him a a living, it seems reasonable to believe he will keep working on it.

> So even if “open core” is a strictly better model, we lack the intuition and experience to feel confident starting there. By thinking of Elm as the “open core” at first, we give ourselves time to learn and flexibility to expand the core later.

https://acadia.engineering/license/faq

The way I read this, Acadia is an attempt to finance working on both it and Elm.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#48

Post by skydhash » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:15 PM UTC

dminik wrote: post #36

schaefer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …can't help but notice how sql is coming from the c-Era of programming. Having … more modern ways to express my queries would be great to improve correctness … SQL is based in pure mathematics: set theory, relational algebra. The process of applying mathematical rigor to your database design to prove correctness is referred to as normalization. I don’t mind criticisms like “It’s old, yuck”, but criticisms like “it’…

Syntax aside, programmers and mathematicians have a very different view on how things should be done. Programmers look at data and see opportunities for running a pipeline of transformations (map/filter/...). And they tend to write their SQL like this as well. Or use something like Linq or one of the various pipe syntax SQL extensions. I would say that this is a major reason why there is this sentiment of "SQL is yuc…

Data storage and retrieval is a different domain than data processing. SQL is very good at the former, not so great for the latter.

SQL is closer to array programming than the usual imperative implementation of looping (and stream programming like the one in Java and Javascript). A better implementation is functional programming like haskell and clojure (lazy and composition of functions).

I think developers should be able to switch their mental model on the fly according to the current domain instead of getting stuck in the first paradigm they have learned.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#49

Post by skydhash » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:17 PM UTC

akoboldfrying wrote: post #16

Is this at all similar to LINQ in C#? I never used it, but I'm vaguely aware of it being a functional approach to querying an RDBMS.

From what I seen (not an expert). It’s mostly sql with a c# flavor and auto translation to native type.

Re: Rethinking Database Programming

#50

Post by hombre_fatal » Tue, Aug 18, 2026, 12:24 PM UTC

dwohnitmok wrote: post #40

Oh man. If this lobste.rs comment is correct about the subscription terms then this feels like a really hard pill to swallow: https://lobste.rs/s/ykq7ym/rethinking_database_programming#c... Still might be viable, but would be tricky to sell. > SUBSCRIPTION TERMS > This license is subscription-based and will remain valid only for the duration of your active subscription. Upon expiration or termination of your subscrip…

On the other hand, norms in software right now are that suckers build and maintain software for free + "the love of the game should be enough for anyone", so it's shocking when people break the norm.