Earlier quoted context omitted.
When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consc…
> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out c…
The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
61–70 of 96 posts
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been under general anesthesia, but it does not feel too different. I'm dead when sleeping, and basically never dream. I should have said "dreamless sleep" in the earlier comment to be more precise because dreaming is obviously different, but it happens so rarely I forget it exists.
> basically never dream I’m open to correction but my understanding is everyone dreams when they have REM sleep and everyone has some REM sleep every night unless there are rare medical conditions which would be unhealthy if there is a long period of no REM sleep. People who believe they never dream (including myself before I learned this) simply don’t remember it. If you were woken artificially during REM you might…
Perhaps memory and consciousness are closely related or even the same process, as there is no way to tell them apart from the inside.
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out c…
Feels like sleep to me every time. Dreams and all.
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had some serious surgery a few years ago and paid attention when I went under to see if I could recall anything. Nope. You don’t exist for that time. Anesthesiologist counts down 10, 9, 8, 7, and then I was teleported to the recovery bed. I consider it incredibly weird and very unlike sleep. Consciousness is off, instantly, then back.
Well... memory is off at least.
But hey, I don't have cancer anymore. So if I had to endure four hours of agony that I don't remember, I'll take it.
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> basically never dream I’m open to correction but my understanding is everyone dreams when they have REM sleep and everyone has some REM sleep every night unless there are rare medical conditions which would be unhealthy if there is a long period of no REM sleep. People who believe they never dream (including myself before I learned this) simply don’t remember it. If you were woken artificially during REM you might…
The last time I dreamt was in April. I'd make a note about it in my day log txt file when it happens. It's not the same as a normal night's sleep, and I would remember it. But I assume not having REM sleep for the past 4 months would mean reduced cognitive functioning, which is obviously not the case, so maybe I simply cannot remember my dreams most of the time. Perhaps memory and consciousness are closely related or…
Anyway yes, as I understand it this should be the last time you _remember_ having dreamt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep says we hit REM multiple times per night normally.
... Also this Wikipedia says we have non-REM dreams. This whole article is interesting, thank you for indirectly prompting me to read up a bit :)
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
If by "consciousness" you mean the thing that goes away when we sleep, how are you so sure that there's not a conscious thinker in the machine? That seems like a hypothesis rather than a proven fact as we don't know what process in the brain is responsible for consciousness fading away (assuming a practical materialist stance here) when we sleep. If it's some very basic informational pattern thing, then computers cou…
Burden of Proof mainly. If I cut off my finger I’m still awake. If I cut off my head I’m gone forever. Presumably there is something going on in the head that isn’t happening in the finger (or the LLM). We can be a lot more precise than that even, requiring nerves, chemistry, sense organs, to really get at a specific human definition of “what I mean by consciousness.” But yeah you have the essence of it - I just mean…
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#67Consciousness occurs when: (1) The model we learn of the environment, extends to our own bodies status indicators, then our general emotional mood/emotions/reflexes, and finally to some level awareness of our thought behaviors. So our general model includes some visibility and modeling of our own thinking processes. (2) Our control where we learn to redirect the environment, extends to our bodies as subjects themselv…
How far down the tree of life does this theory consider to be conscious?
There won't be a simple answer, but if the model=actor due to survival pressures theory stands, it must be clearly testable.
I would go about answering that question as follows, identify the smartest creatures, whose cognition is most alien to ours, whose behavior suggests they have a strong real-time sense of self that extends into it immediate processing, regardless of immediate action, or immediate action dependent on immediate state that is not easily explained as normally detectable or processed lower order state.
Humans obviously.
Then the octopus, a true alien cognition. it has an extremely curious and creative mind, and can behave quite differently in even slightly different situations, as well as coherently is situations that ought to be well out of its niche in nature range.
Parrots are very distantly related. And are another example of very versatile social minds, who can pick up nuance, are lifelong learners.
The jumping spider had and extremely distant lineage, relative to people. But is a highly counterintuitively intelligent creature for its size. It is clear than when presented with a problem, it doesn't just search for a solution, but ruminates, and often finds non-monotonic, non-linear and very indirect means. And once it sets on a plan it carries it out adeptly. Even its smallest movement betray very nuanced understanding of physical dynamics. And it appears to be able to form "social" bonds with people it is familiar with. Those may be produced by simple strategies, or they may not.
Clearly rats are high intelligent. Closer to us, but no as close as many other intelligent mammals.
Whales come to mind. Although the logistic defy imagination.
What all these creatures also have, is a high ability to tackle novel problems individually. Sometimes also together.
Then a biologists approach might be creating various experiments, with and without brain scanning, to attempt to identify any externally or internally functional differences under conditions designed to require self-modelling and/or self-control at high level to occur.
That is just a thought on a start. And would only be a beginning.
The big questions, is a creatures ability to function, highly related to its ability to detect and therefore respond to its highest level states. And is that a very fast, essentially realtime, level of awareness and control, awareness and control, outside of a larger longer external loop.
Then can experiments be set up, that would create what might appear to be a cognitive threat to a creature? Does the creature treat managing internal states as important as managing external states? Is it able to do that at all? Does it go further and prioritize them/
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#68Isn't this a testable hypothesis? If consciousness spread virally and isn't a natural outgrowth of the physical structure of the brain, then presumably isolated indigenous tribes would still have pre-consciousness mental processes, and that should be detectable somehow. The being said, I'm reading "Proto" By Laura Spinney, and the thing that strikes me is how recently the world's major languages developed. Everyone a…
Our language development and our awareness is currently tied to writing/record keeping. Hard for us to know anything about prehistoric languages.
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#69Isn't this a testable hypothesis? If consciousness spread virally and isn't a natural outgrowth of the physical structure of the brain, then presumably isolated indigenous tribes would still have pre-consciousness mental processes, and that should be detectable somehow. The being said, I'm reading "Proto" By Laura Spinney, and the thing that strikes me is how recently the world's major languages developed. Everyone a…
The language thing is just that without writing, reconstructions based on regular sound correspondences only allow us to infer backwards by a few thousand years. It doesn't mean that anything particularly interesting happened exactly at that time to human language. It's just that language changes relatively fast on this timescale so current languages don't offer enough clues. And the origins of language are famously…
Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anesthesia is a rather different state than sleep.
When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consc…