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The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

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Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#51

Post by OkayPhysicist »

bonoboTP wrote: post #34
mjd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly Jaynes's theory: consciousness not only arrived after the invention of language, it arrived after the invention of writing, literature, agriculture, metallurgy, and government bureaucracy. And also, that it _could not_ have arisen without language because it is crucially founded in the capability of language to describe the world metaphorically. You don't have to like it, but that's the theory that is…

A great majority of humanity remained illiterate just a few generations ago. It's absurd to posit they weren't conscious. Hunter-gatherer and nomadic lifestyles are complex and require deep thought and planning and coordination. You can't do it purely reactively or carrying out simple scripts. Its not so clear to me if it's the chicken or egg. So many things are good candidates for the key ingredient. I personally th…

You're conflating "written language" with "language". While it's still far from impossible to find people who can't read or write, it's exceptionally difficult to find adults with no grasp of any spoken language.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#52

Post by txrx0000 »

munificent wrote: post #42
txrx0000 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consc…

> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out c…

I've been under general anesthesia, but it does not feel too different. I'm dead when sleeping, and basically never dream. I should have said "dreamless sleep" in the earlier comment to be more precise because dreaming is obviously different, but it happens so rarely I forget it exists.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#53

Post by dboreham »

bonoboTP wrote: post #34
mjd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly Jaynes's theory: consciousness not only arrived after the invention of language, it arrived after the invention of writing, literature, agriculture, metallurgy, and government bureaucracy. And also, that it _could not_ have arisen without language because it is crucially founded in the capability of language to describe the world metaphorically. You don't have to like it, but that's the theory that is…

A great majority of humanity remained illiterate just a few generations ago. It's absurd to posit they weren't conscious. Hunter-gatherer and nomadic lifestyles are complex and require deep thought and planning and coordination. You can't do it purely reactively or carrying out simple scripts. Its not so clear to me if it's the chicken or egg. So many things are good candidates for the key ingredient. I personally th…

Illiterate isn't the same as having no language, just (sic) saying.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#55

Post by adolph »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #8

Isn't this a testable hypothesis? If consciousness spread virally and isn't a natural outgrowth of the physical structure of the brain, then presumably isolated indigenous tribes would still have pre-consciousness mental processes, and that should be detectable somehow. The being said, I'm reading "Proto" By Laura Spinney, and the thing that strikes me is how recently the world's major languages developed. Everyone a…

> If consciousness spread virally

“The nam-shub of Enki is both a story and an incantation,” the Librarian says. “A self-fulfilling fiction. Lagos believed that in its original form, which this translation only hints at, it actually did what it describes.” [0]

0. Stephenson, Neal. Snow Crash: A Novel

Stephenson has Hiro state it more explicitly in Chapter 56.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#57

Post by shric »

txrx0000 wrote: post #52
munificent wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out c…

I've been under general anesthesia, but it does not feel too different. I'm dead when sleeping, and basically never dream. I should have said "dreamless sleep" in the earlier comment to be more precise because dreaming is obviously different, but it happens so rarely I forget it exists.

> basically never dream

I’m open to correction but my understanding is everyone dreams when they have REM sleep and everyone has some REM sleep every night unless there are rare medical conditions which would be unhealthy if there is a long period of no REM sleep.

People who believe they never dream (including myself before I learned this) simply don’t remember it. If you were woken artificially during REM you might remember fragments.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#58

Post by txrx0000 »

adolph wrote: post #46
txrx0000 wrote: post #9

The article's definition of consciousness is precise, but it's not what people are referring to in most cases where the word "consciousness" is used. Of course, a word can have multiple definitions. But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. I don't think there's a much better way to define that. The contrast between the wakeful and non…

> when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. How is dreaming during sleep different from consciousness when awake?

It feels very different to me. I have a dream perhaps once a year, and it's nowhere near as vivid as real experiences. Dreams don't have much color, shape, or audio, just a blurry mess where I could barely make out things resembling objects or people. There is no way to mistake that with reality.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#59

Post by abecode »

I think that given the developments in AI in the last ~10 years, it would be hard to say that attention is not part of consciousness. I'm not sure if it is "all you need", but I think that any theory that doesn't include it would be very doubtful.

Re: The Origin of Consciousness (2008)

#60

Post by JK-Swizzle »

colinrand wrote: post #25

I find this on the crackpottery side. Narrowly defining a certain aspect of consciousness to make a point, and disregarding many (most) other aspects of consciousness. Self-aware much?

How would you define it?

Would your definition be that of your experience?

Would that definition encompass all of humanity, past and present?

Would that definition contain all sapient life? Sentient too?

Would that definition allow for less complex forms of life?

Reading the comments on this post, I am inclined to agree with the words of his biographer “there were people who disagreed with him [who] had not really read his book or understood it.”

If you do get a chance to actually read the book (as you ought to), it covers all the issues and complexities you may have. It is limited only by the information of the era.

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