Live data from Hacker News

Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

simonwillison.net

301–310 of 411 posts

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#301
post #249
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that moment was Gemma 4 12B QAT. You're not suddenly going to start throwing your hardest programming problems at Gemma 4 12B QAT, it is still 15B parameters less. It's more that, aside from pelican art which isn't what local models are for, I didn't see anything on Simon's post that it couldn't assist with or largely succeed at. It can run 80-100t/s on a laptop, can understand images natively and do bounding…

> transcribe or translate anything you say Is it multimodal? How do you do transcription with it?

Gemma 4 E2B, E4B and 12B unified accept audio - here's a recipe using MLX that can use it for transcription: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Apr/12/mlx-audio/

Only up to 30s though, and the larger 26B A4B and 31B models are text and image only.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#302
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google provided incorrect settings and an imperfect template. Unsloth modified the template and then finetuned their own version of the model to optimize for some benchmarks as a means of validating quants. Google and Llama.cpp then adopt template changes by default, so anyone downloading the new model or even using the original model will now automatically be using it incorrectly. Llama.cpp also uses the same infere…

I am very much a beginner to local LLM stuff and I find it incredibly hard to figure out how to run models optimally with the correct settings for my hardware. The number of different variations of the same model and how each quant work is super confusing as well. When I tried to run llama.cpp directly I was getting max 9tk/s on qwen3.5-9B, then I tried LM Studio with the same model and got 77tk/s. I haven't figured…

If your package manager / configurator isn’t claude code or codex, you’re wasting time.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#303
post #66

“The fact that a 17GB file can do all of this stuff on my home machines is a miracle. Once again, I’m delighted and amazed at how much progress local models have made this year.” I think that should be the blinking headline - this shows what can be done with consumer hardware.

Full agree. I until very recently thought AI tools of today were limited to prohibitively expensive high end hardware hosted in data centers. I was surprised and amazed to get "decent" (with the expectations set right / low) coding performance out of Qwen3.5-9B on a decidedly medium end Radeon 9070 paired with a 5700x3d and 32GB of DDR4 RAM. We can finally reason with and "talk" to our hardware.

I don't want to reason with my hardware, I want my hardware to do what I tell it to do.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#304
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the old proverb: "The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all."

Indeed. LLMs resemble human intelligence in more or less the same way that the output of the TI-99/4A speech synthesizer resembles a human voice.

Find memories of the prank phone call marathons during the summer of 85 when my friend got the speech synthesizer for his TI-99.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#305
post #171
post #66

“The fact that a 17GB file can do all of this stuff on my home machines is a miracle. Once again, I’m delighted and amazed at how much progress local models have made this year.” I think that should be the blinking headline - this shows what can be done with consumer hardware.

For me that moment was Gemma 4 12B QAT. You're not suddenly going to start throwing your hardest programming problems at Gemma 4 12B QAT, it is still 15B parameters less. It's more that, aside from pelican art which isn't what local models are for, I didn't see anything on Simon's post that it couldn't assist with or largely succeed at. It can run 80-100t/s on a laptop, can understand images natively and do bounding…

> It's only 7GB including the mmproj or 8GB with MTP.

Even more impressively it doesn't have a separate mmproj at all — it is fully integrated, and the vision encoder doesn't speak words into the LLM, as it were —- it is directly integrated into the model's weights.

I have banged on about this model here enough but I really agree that Gemma 4 12B is a candidate for the most impressive LLM of the year. It is remarkable, and I think because it is a small model that isn't apparently excellent for long-context agentic coding, it has been largely ignored.

It is, actually, quite good at coding jobs. (Though its grasp of nuance is a bit weaker. For example, it doesn't know that closures created inside PHP objects have implicit access to the object as $this, and always seems to need reminding.)

If you instead treat it as a prediction of what consumer on-device AI may very soon be able to do, or even as a possible future into a sort of lower-ratio MoE, or the basis of a modest private offline educational LLM model, it's very interesting indeed.

I've learned a lot from it — the fact that it performs so well at such a small size really does help you assess claims made for much larger models, and it's quick enough on my M1 Max to just muck about with.

I do think the release of these models was somewhat fluffed up, and I don't think it helps that the 31B model uses global attention so it underperforms on the kind of older GPUs that are on a lot of desks; it's no better on those than it is on my M1 Max, where other attention schemes seem to be radically better.

Now that tool-calling is mostly fixed, it's well worth playing with them.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#306
post #74
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The recent 'Stolen Thoughts'[1] paper shows many excerpts of private reasoning for frontier models. For a complex maths problem, Sol reasoned in 367 tokens before working: We need solve. Need interpret no person sits next to two other people = among binary string length16 weight8, no occupied chair whose both neighbors occupied, equivalently ab 111 substring. Endpoints cannot have two neighbors anyway; only avoid 111…

All these weird partial language thought patterns im surprised none of the teams have taught the models to think in something like court stenography or some very dense pattern (i mean they even tried caveman language at one point)

It's not obvious if that would help. Some tests have shown that what exactly the thinking tokens are only makes a small difference to the performance of the model, and that the contents of them are sometimes only tenuously related to to what the model actually does after them. It seems like it could be they are more like a kind of "mumbling" and that the underlying mechanism by which they actually help performance is just that it makes more computation available to the model by just giving more passes on the earlier input tokens through the network.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very much a beginner to local LLM stuff and I find it incredibly hard to figure out how to run models optimally with the correct settings for my hardware. The number of different variations of the same model and how each quant work is super confusing as well. When I tried to run llama.cpp directly I was getting max 9tk/s on qwen3.5-9B, then I tried LM Studio with the same model and got 77tk/s. I haven't figured…

If your package manager / configurator isn’t claude code or codex, you’re wasting time.

Unless, of course, your goal is to actually understand what is going on, regardless of whether that is difficult.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#308
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that moment was Gemma 4 12B QAT. You're not suddenly going to start throwing your hardest programming problems at Gemma 4 12B QAT, it is still 15B parameters less. It's more that, aside from pelican art which isn't what local models are for, I didn't see anything on Simon's post that it couldn't assist with or largely succeed at. It can run 80-100t/s on a laptop, can understand images natively and do bounding…

> It can run 80-100t/s on a laptop That is a lot, what is your laptop hardware? One issue I have with Gemma is that they seem to use old architectures that rely on full attention, requiring a lot of RAM for context and quickly degrading speeds as context is filled. Qwen 3.5+ is much better in that regard with its super efficient context. Even on Macs, speeds take degrade much more slowly.

> One issue I have with Gemma is that they seem to use old architectures that rely on full attention, requiring a lot of RAM for context and quickly degrading speeds as context is filled.

Yes, this is something I hope they will change. Gemma 4 31B is much slower on pre-Blackwell GPUs as a result, which is a bit of a shame for local model experimentation.

Re: Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

#309
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the model is thinking in a token space, itself a compressive representation of language. (Note: there's still a huge grammar penalty, so, ugh do think small.)

The real breakthrough is going to be thinking in latent space.

Arguably this is already happening: the whole state of the model gets fed through from token to token, and even just shoving a bunch of dashes in between the input tokens and the model's output can improve performance (thinking tokens from the model help a little bit more, but the difference is not as large as you mught expect).
Post reply on HN