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Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

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Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how you get DDOS protection / edge delivery, so it's not a dark pattern. I imagine it's the main reason why people would DNS through them in the first place.

An “orange cloud” with no other indication to represent a feature that is enabled-by-default (with implicitly enabled analytics) sounds like quite the dark pattern. The UI makes the DNS record seem to point to A (your entry) but actually points to B (Cloudflare). This isn’t an oversight, it’s an attempt to obfuscate. Even if the choice to enable it by default makes sense for Cloudflare’s userbase, the implications ar…

The options are actually labelled as 'Proxied' or 'DNS Only', so that is actually quite clear.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#102
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If RUM is such a good thing, why is it opt-in for paid users? Why push this gracious gift only onto free users?

I have broadly good feelings about Cloudflare but this warrants a response.

Because if something is free, you are the product.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#103

A public service reminder to anyone setting up their domains that there are many alternatives to Cloudflare, like EG Bunny.net (I am not affiliated, just a happy customer) and that by using one of these other DNS providers, you - play your small part in keeping the Internet open - delay or avoid entirely the enshittification that is 100% foreseeable when buying the "free" services of a quasi-monopoly vendor. If you'r…

if you aren't paying, you aren't buying

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how you get DDOS protection / edge delivery, so it's not a dark pattern. I imagine it's the main reason why people would DNS through them in the first place.

An “orange cloud” with no other indication to represent a feature that is enabled-by-default (with implicitly enabled analytics) sounds like quite the dark pattern. The UI makes the DNS record seem to point to A (your entry) but actually points to B (Cloudflare). This isn’t an oversight, it’s an attempt to obfuscate. Even if the choice to enable it by default makes sense for Cloudflare’s userbase, the implications ar…

It's essentially the entire reason to use Cloudflare.

As sibling mentions it is indeed labeled and not just some icon. People just refer to the orange cloud UI for it for convenience and because it makes it easy to spot whether you have it on or not.

But regarding the icon, the icon is their company logo, it really is the primary feature. It's also not like you have to go find it in settings to turn it off after adding DNS record, it's part of the form when you add the record (default on, yes), and it's prominent when viewing the record.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#105

You are right that Cloudflare enabled these analytics by default for our free plans in Septemeber of last year. We built Real User Measurement (RUM) into our free plans because it gives site owners actionable performance data they would not otherwise have. It is on by default for free sites fr the reasons we wrote about in the blog post below. It is easy to disable if you don't want it on. All of our paid plans are o…

Wow, this is ridiculous. Sites that have been running on Cloudflare for a decade+ silently got the treatment. Why the hell was there never a big banner telling me about this? I frequently log into the console.

I get it that by being on the free plan (well I do pay for Registrar), I'm the product, but I also converted employers to paying customers of yours based on goodwill. This just destroyed about all of that, among other things. If I haven't given a damn about "powerful, in-depth monitoring solution that helps you debug and optimize applications" in over a decade, I certainly won't suddenly be "excited" about it when you sneakily inject it.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I operate own DNS (including own custom root.zone) and I MiTM own TLS traffic with a localhost forward proxy. With this setup I get r/w access to response bodies, I add a CSP as an HTTP response header, and a long list of other traffic manipulation. There is no tracking, ads, telemetry, etc. Nothing leaves the computer unless I allow it. Operating DNS plus forward proxy gives me lots of control Letting Cloudfla…

This is a tangent, but your setup sounds interesting to me — would you share more about how to configure such for myself?

Many years ago I started to describe how it works in an HN comment and some reply complained about the idea of terminating TLS, i.e., decrypting, and then re-encrypting. Obviously this sacrifices something, e.g, speed, in order to gain _control_

But this is what Cloudflare does and no one seems to mind

Large companies also do this to protect their LANs

I'm not running a CDN, only a small home LAN. I'm only procesing a small amount of traffic on a personal computer. This setup is fast enough for me, it's not slow at all

The basic configuration is generally:

1. Configure DNS to point to the local proxy listening address #1, a local address, e.g., using a wildcard in a zone file

2. Configure the proxy to terminate TLS, "do stuff", and then forward to proxy UNIX socket path #2 or proxy listening address #2

3. After doing the stuff, the proxy then sends the traffic over the internet

The "do stuff" part is personal. It depends on what one wants to do. There are seemingly endless possibilities

It's not likely the constantly changing configurations I use would be suitable for others. It's all based on personal preferences and usage habits

I rarely use a graphical browser, for example

I don't make piecemeal remote DNS queries like most www users. (IME, most A RR's stay the same over long periods.) I get bulk DNS data periodicallly from a variety of sources and load it into the proxy's memory. When I make an HTTP request there is either no DNS lookup because I'm using the IP address of the proxy or there is a single, local DNS lookup which returns the address of the proxy. There is no access to remote DNS

When I first decided to start inspecting own TLS traffic by terminating and re-encrypting, I initially tested the idea using socat

After I saw that it worked, I started using other software like haproxy

I never expected this approach would work well enough but many years have gone by and I'm still using it. The configurations I use are much longer and more complicated than any sample I have ever seen on the www

It's funny that Cloudflare is decrypting and re-encryting _other peoples'_ traffic, and this is thought to be AOK, but aside from large companies few people seem interested in doing this with their _own_ traffic on their _own_ computers on their _own_ networks

It can be useful, IMHO

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#107

You are right that Cloudflare enabled these analytics by default for our free plans in Septemeber of last year. We built Real User Measurement (RUM) into our free plans because it gives site owners actionable performance data they would not otherwise have. It is on by default for free sites fr the reasons we wrote about in the blog post below. It is easy to disable if you don't want it on. All of our paid plans are o…

> It is on by default for free sites fr the reasons we wrote about in the blog post below.

Nowhere in the blog post does it give the reasons why it's A. on by default for free sites B. off by default for paid sites.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#108

You are right that Cloudflare enabled these analytics by default for our free plans in Septemeber of last year. We built Real User Measurement (RUM) into our free plans because it gives site owners actionable performance data they would not otherwise have. It is on by default for free sites fr the reasons we wrote about in the blog post below. It is easy to disable if you don't want it on. All of our paid plans are o…

What an amazing display of double speak. The only thing I didn't get is how is the DOW doing?

Btw I remember another time you tried to manipulate the DOM of peoples websites. It lead to Cloudbleed.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#109
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If RUM is such a good thing, why is it opt-in for paid users? Why push this gracious gift only onto free users?

I have broadly good feelings about Cloudflare but this warrants a response.

Because paying business customers are a lot more sensitive to this type of change rolling out. They are particular about how they want their shit hosted. Which is totally fair. People on the free tier probably a lot more interested in free benefits and care less about a little change in their hosting.

Re: Tell HN: Cloudflare silently injects its analytics when you switch nameservers

#110

You are right that Cloudflare enabled these analytics by default for our free plans in Septemeber of last year. We built Real User Measurement (RUM) into our free plans because it gives site owners actionable performance data they would not otherwise have. It is on by default for free sites fr the reasons we wrote about in the blog post below. It is easy to disable if you don't want it on. All of our paid plans are o…

Not sure what is more appalling. Silently injecting javascript tracking, or writing a marketing-speech response like this without any substance at all
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