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Seven books I keep close because I love them

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191–200 of 205 posts

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#191
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re confusing geospatial happenstance with religion. No, I don’t like living in a culture that believes a guy came back from the dead. Especially when it’s enriched via colonization. I don’t “have it good”, I literally live in an intellectual wasteland. Have you ever been to the US? I’ve been to many countries and Christian culture is one of my least favorites. What makes you think I’m not indigenous? I ne…

Supposed intellectual wasteland is far better than an actual wasteland. If you live in the US, you most likely have it far better than most everyone else on earth. Immigrants know this much better than Americans who take their freedoms and comfortable life for granted. They are a hard working people and have earned their current privileges.

Oh, it's an actual wasteland too! Again, have you ever been to the US? Outside of our few Disneyland style cities, you're going to get nothing but Applebee's, freeways and obese people hooked on fentanyl. It's truly post-apocalyptic here. I've been to many countries and all of them have the US beat for quality of life. Walk-able, great food, aesthetically pleasing, rich history not built on genocide and land theft, no NFL/jesus/monster truck/gun culture...

Just because some immigrants abandon their homes to come be part of the problem, it doesn't actually make the US a good place to live. I think movies and TV really did a number on a lot of people giving them a misguided view of what it's like to live here.

> If you live in the US, you most likely have it far better than most everyone else on earth

Ask most everyone else on earth how much they pay per month for health insurance. Most can't even fathom how we live like we do once they start learning the details. It's horrible.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#192
post #172
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NIV has as a stated goal to preserve the "infallibility" of the Bible, which means their translation opts for internal consistency over accuracy. I personally think it's the least trustworthy translation, a product specifically of the American evangelical movement in the Boomer heyday. The generation that really hates. The one that supercharged the anti-abortion movement as a direct response to the Supreme Court…

Meh, the text isn't setting the attitude -hence, people railing against homosexuality while wearing polycotton slacks. The issue is susceptibility to dogma, which is an attack vector. An attacker uses this to gain root, then they can pivot by editing the creed.

[dead]

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#193
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never owned a copy of Roget's, and now I'm curious/tempted to get one, but my go-to digital word picking assistant has always been OneLook Thesaurus: https://www.onelook.com/thesaurus/

Hey, I'm the developer of OneLook. I'm so glad to see it here! The concept clusters on the site are directly inspired by Roget's work. Like the author, I see a thesaurus less as a synonym dictionary and more as what the word literally means, a storehouse of treasure. I'm in the midst of a long-overdue data refresh across OneLook right now, so I'd be curious to hear your feedback once it's done.

I've been enjoying Cadgy. https://www.onelook.com/cadgy/

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nono, I was refering specifically to the culture and time period in which the old testament was composed, not other cultures or time periods - those were clearly patriarchical, it would be a mistake to dismiss that when interpreting the old testament. Considering the culture in which a written artifact was composed is one of the main pilars that hermeneutics relies on (but obviously not the only one)

Let's start with "time period in which the old testament was composed" When was that exactly? I believe the oldest extant versions are from around 300 AD. We have a rough idea of when certain books might have been written, but that is open to debate, and strong arguments have been made that put the origin of certain parts of these books centuries apart. Even the composition of a 'canonical' version of these books col…

> "which we think they might have been originally written"

please don't assume about me, almost all of what you wrote was known to me prior before reading your comment. That information regarding XVII century England for example is something I would have supposed, but did not know for sure; I just knew the equivalent for German society at that time.

> When was that exactly? I believe the oldest extant versions are from around 300 AD. We have a rough idea of when certain books might have been written, but that is open to debate, and strong arguments have been made that put the origin of certain parts of these books centuries apart. Even the composition of a 'canonical' version of these books collections is not really clear before a certain point that is several centuries removed from the time in which we think they might have been originally written.

Yeah, 300 AD would be a sensible starting point. I am strictly talking about ancient Israel, during the time where the old testament was composed, where the exact point in time does not even matter for my claim, because my claim is: "The society that composed the OT was primarily patriarchical during most of the perioud where the OT was written, edited, read, to such a degree that it would be a mistake to pretend it was not." Nobody claims to have a time machine, of course.

Here are some well-reputated sources that strengthen my claim, and are congruent with what I rememember from my own readings of the Code of Hammurabi and the Old Testament way back:

- "Hennie J. Marsman, Women in Ugarit and Israel: Their Social and Religious Position in the Context of the Ancient Near East (Brill, 2003)". Massive comparative study of the ANE, her conclusion: [AI/]She concludes that while women had more rights than often assumed (they could sometimes buy land or engage in trade), the societies were undeniably patriarchal in their legal architecture. High priesthoods, kingships, and tribal elderships were exclusively male domains.[/AI]

- "Hans Jochem Boecker, Law and the Administration of Justice in the Old Testament and Ancient East (1980)", summary: [AI/]Analyzing the biblical Covenant Code, the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, and Middle Assyrian Laws, Boecker points out that women were legally disadvantaged. For instance, in many ANE legal codes, a woman's sexuality was treated as the property of her father or husband. Boecker writes regarding ANE legal codes: "There cannot either, of course, be any question of the legal equality of men and women"[/AI]

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Bible:

"Ancient Near Eastern societies have traditionally been described as patriarchal, and the Bible, as a document written by men, has traditionally been interpreted as patriarchal in its overall views of women.[1]: 9 [2]: 166–167 [3] Marital and inheritance laws in the Bible favor men, and women in the Bible exist under much stricter laws of sexual behavior than men. In ancient biblical times, women were subject to strict laws of purity, both ritual and moral.

Recent scholarship accepts the presence of patriarchy in the Bible, but shows that heterarchy is also present: heterarchy acknowledges that different power structures between people can exist at the same time, that each power structure has its own hierarchical arrangements, and that women had some spheres of power of their own separate from men.[1]: 27 There is evidence of gender balance in the Bible, and there is no attempt in the Bible to portray women as deserving of less because of their "naturally evil" natures."

Heterarchy being present would not render the society non-patriarchical, especially when it comes to matter like the one that started this subthread, in that geneology trees should be viewed through a patriarchical lens, and that it is more likely that those elements are something familiar to the intended audience (which is not some small religious elite, mind you, the opposite, those narratives were written for a deeply religious society, with a scripture-based religion).

> Put simply, what I meant with my previous comment was: we have literally no idea if the people who wrote these supposed genealogies in Exodus were in fact practicing these inheritance legal forms you mentioned.

Of course not, put that way, we know basically nothing about anything and could simply abandon the discipline of academic history.

Scholars have to make and do make educated guesses though, which forms a consensus if enough do agree, and the current consensus is still that ancient israel had a patriarchical legal framework, and for example also that women were economically dependent over large amounts of time. Which is also reflect in a lot of books in the OT, which makes sense if 1) the stories where intended to be relatable and 2) the authors used what they observed around them to describe it. That depends on the genre of course, for prophetic books or lyricals books, there are different rules, but when it comes to the stories that have a narrative core, then this absolutely is something that historians consider when it comes to how the intended audience of the literarical work is structured. Constistently so, across regions and times.

The position that "many instances of primogeniture in the old testament would have been something not deeply known and likely experienced first hand by the typical reader" is pretty hard to defend, as I argued above. That is as close to knowing as we can get without a time machine - but if one does not make such (well-founded) assumptions, then much of the humanities, including hermeneutics, stands on shaky grounds.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#195
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposed intellectual wasteland is far better than an actual wasteland. If you live in the US, you most likely have it far better than most everyone else on earth. Immigrants know this much better than Americans who take their freedoms and comfortable life for granted. They are a hard working people and have earned their current privileges.

Oh, it's an actual wasteland too! Again, have you ever been to the US? Outside of our few Disneyland style cities, you're going to get nothing but Applebee's, freeways and obese people hooked on fentanyl. It's truly post-apocalyptic here. I've been to many countries and all of them have the US beat for quality of life. Walk-able, great food, aesthetically pleasing, rich history not built on genocide and land theft, n…

You have an Applebees, what I am referring to is extreme poverty, where people have chronic hunger or are starving. High insurance costs are bad, but consider the person who has no ability to pay for food let alone medical care and there is little to no support.

There are certainly wealthy countries other than the US, but most people don’t live in those countries.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#196
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it's an actual wasteland too! Again, have you ever been to the US? Outside of our few Disneyland style cities, you're going to get nothing but Applebee's, freeways and obese people hooked on fentanyl. It's truly post-apocalyptic here. I've been to many countries and all of them have the US beat for quality of life. Walk-able, great food, aesthetically pleasing, rich history not built on genocide and land theft, n…

You have an Applebees, what I am referring to is extreme poverty, where people have chronic hunger or are starving. High insurance costs are bad, but consider the person who has no ability to pay for food let alone medical care and there is little to no support. There are certainly wealthy countries other than the US, but most people don’t live in those countries.

There’s homeless people everywhere in the US. They definitely have chronic hunger, extreme poverty and no support. We also have one of, if not the largest prison population in the world.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#197
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having just finished the book of Judges last week, this is fresh on my mind. Finishing the story of Samson, my first reaction, like the author of the post, is that Samson is just stupid. Delilah is likely a Philistine, the nemesis of Samson and the Israelites. Her intention to betray and destroy Samson is hardly hidden in her questioning him. How can Samson be so dumb? But I thought about it deeper and how some men c…

I think it's more of a desire to be loved by the woman he falls in love with and not accepting that she is not going to love him back. His refusal to acknowledge the truth sets him on a course of self abandonment, he simps after a wife that treats him bad to use the parlance of our time. I think it shows physical strength can't guard you from a broken heart.

This reminds me of the story of Narcissus. The tragedy is that he cannot love anyone who loves him, because he cannot love himself. When he rejects the advances of the young man Ameinias, he is punished by Nemesis who proclaims that Narcissus “would never be able to be loved by the one he fell in love with.” The irony is that this was already his curse; after his punishment, he fails to recognize his own face in a pool of water, and falls in love with his wounded self, who cannot love him back.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#198
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I'm the developer of OneLook. I'm so glad to see it here! The concept clusters on the site are directly inspired by Roget's work. Like the author, I see a thesaurus less as a synonym dictionary and more as what the word literally means, a storehouse of treasure. I'm in the midst of a long-overdue data refresh across OneLook right now, so I'd be curious to hear your feedback once it's done.

I've been enjoying Cadgy. https://www.onelook.com/cadgy/

Thanks so much! It's a joy to make it every day.

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#199
post #184
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I'm the developer of OneLook. I'm so glad to see it here! The concept clusters on the site are directly inspired by Roget's work. Like the author, I see a thesaurus less as a synonym dictionary and more as what the word literally means, a storehouse of treasure. I'm in the midst of a long-overdue data refresh across OneLook right now, so I'd be curious to hear your feedback once it's done.

Twenty years ago, OneLook Reverse was how I took college papers from a B to an A through intimidating the TAs with absurdly specific yet exactly fitting three dollar words. That they thought I knew the field led to great friendships (and jobs) with some of them. I owe you big time and thank you!

That fills my heart with brobdingnagian joy, thank you!

Re: Seven books I keep close because I love them

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with "time period in which the old testament was composed" When was that exactly? I believe the oldest extant versions are from around 300 AD. We have a rough idea of when certain books might have been written, but that is open to debate, and strong arguments have been made that put the origin of certain parts of these books centuries apart. Even the composition of a 'canonical' version of these books col…

> "which we think they might have been originally written" please don't assume about me, almost all of what you wrote was known to me prior before reading your comment. That information regarding XVII century England for example is something I would have supposed, but did not know for sure; I just knew the equivalent for German society at that time. > When was that exactly? I believe the oldest extant versions are fr…

If whoever wrote the stretches of the Exodus that might read as genealogies in current translations, in a jarring discontinuity between fluent narrative just before and after them actually meant them as genealogies, I have my doubts.

Did these authors write genealogies because they were practicing primogeniture? Unclear. Were they? To answer that we'd have to figure out who wrote these excerpts, when, where did they live, what was the legal system then and there and did these exact rules apply to them? Short answer is we don't know.

We know very little of history prior to a few hundred years ago. We know a lot of well documented episodes but to do social history even of the renaissance is a serious undertaking and shouldn't be trivialized in terms of "surely it was like so back then". Even the early medieval period has a lot of blanks. Did you know a homossexual bishop called "Flora" lived in first millennium France?

Early iron age? Attributing authorship and writing sociological analysis when we don't even know in which century exactly they lived is far fetched to say the least.

Anyway, you don't seem to be taking me seriously, and to be reading as a confrontational argument something that I meant as a friendly and helpful nudge towards digging deeper instead of making assumptions.

> Of course not, put that way, we know basically nothing about anything and could simply abandon the discipline of academic history.

This to me indicates this is something else than a friendly exchange between history nerds so I'll drop the issue.

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